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LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 12:25 am

LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

So I got my LaGard 3332 in the mail today and mounted it. I spent some time looking it over and thought about a way it might be manipulated. I've only done very small scale tests but it seems plausible so far. I slowly approach the "tomahawk" and stop when I hear the fence hit the wheel pack. That's the contact point. I do this several times and take the lowest reading but also record the average reading. I then compared it to when 2 gates are under the fence and see if there is a difference. So far, there has been! I plan on doing a whole graph like this with all the lowest readings in one color and the average reading in another. This means about a dozen or so trial readings per point on the dial. I go by 2.5 increments so 12 x 40 = me staying up late tonight haha :P Hopefully I'll have the graph for you guys by morning but for now, enjoy this video of me showing my technique!. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfsySD4hyIE

p.s. With the gates under the fence, the sound should be heard at a HIGHER # since it's taking more rotation of the dial to get the fence low enough to touch the wheels. If you look at the lowest points for each of the 2 test combinations done in the video, the second one is about .5 increments higher. And on average, the contact point is higher.
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Mikeh727

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 12:35 am

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Very cool Jared! I was surprised at the amount of variation in the contact points. Are you using your amp? Those were pretty loud lol!

-Mike
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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 12:42 am

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

No amp lol I've been trying to find a microphone and hook it up to a speaker or something but the camera captures the sounds quite well on it's own! I like the one that CPT1911 uses but it's too expensive for me, I just blew my money on a bunch of new locks :P Trying to build my collection back up lol
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flywheel

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 12:49 am

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Do your tests with the back cover ON. The tomahawk/spring/lever have some room to wobble when the cover is off most likely resulting in inconsistent readings.

Yours is that loud!? Amazing, my lock the LCP is worthless (nonexistent) and I think I'm finally below 1/4 increment error (fingers crossed) on the RCP . On the plus side, after working with this lock without an amp I think my sensitivity to contact points on a standard group 2 lock is through the roof.

Good luck!
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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 1:45 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

So, I graphed them and had the back cover on. It's so much harder to hear! This may have accounted for errors in the graph. Also, it's a LaGard, and because of the design of the wheels as explained by Altashot, there will be some warp in them causing wheel shadowing. The graph doesn't show any gate signatures (it's all left contact point) but that could be because of the wheel shadowing. This method takes a long time and really strains my senses, I think there will have to be another method utilized instead of this one :/ I tried taking right contact points but I couldn't get it quite as precise.
DSCF4794.JPG

The top graph is the lowest point I found and the bottom is average point out of several readings.
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GWiens2001

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 2:45 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Looks like a good indication at 90, with possibilities in the 30-37.5 range and at 75. None of them are the numbers?

Gordon
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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 2:53 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

The combination is 30-50-70, I forgot to point that out at the top of the piece of paper. I thought 30 looked slightly like a possibility but if I didn't know the combination I probably wouldn't have pursued it.
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Mikeh727

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Nice work Jared, even if it didn't give you the results that you wanted. Someone has to figure these things out, and it looks like you're on the way. Thanks for sharing!

-Mike
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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 10:15 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Ok so I noticed something just now about the lock. Normally, for group 2's we measure how low the nose is to figure out the combo right? And with the 3332 we can't do that because the nose makes no contact with the drive cam unless the combo is entered and then it would be a moot point anyways since the lock would be open. BUT I found out that the tomahawk is making contact with the bottom of the nose. If you look at the marks outlined in the photo, you can see that the cover of the lock pushes the end of the tomahawk down. This forces the middle part of the tomahawk to hit the nose every time it goes up. It dips lower than the nose, then hits it on the way up. The mark on the inside of the back cover proves that it does push the tomahawk down. I made a video illustrating this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJYZslHyZK4 I can't feel the nose being hit through the dial and I can't hear it but I imagine that if there is contact, there will be some noise or feeling or something to indicate so.
marks 1.jpg

marks 2.jpg

marks 3.jpg

This lock is frustrating me so much!! :P

EDIT: Definitely can hear it if I put my ear up to the back of the lock lol I realize this can't be done in a real situation but maybe bare ear to the back of the lock = strong amp to the front?
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flywheel

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 11:14 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Interesting. Is it possible that the tomahawk catches the nose on the way up when the back cover is off? Maybe that is why you have such loud clicks when turning.
My lock, with cover removed, the tomahawk juts out slightly and the lever can slide up and off the pivot. That is why I chose to do manipulations with the cover on.
I do have the same scratch on the cover though, but the nose and tomahawk do not touch unless I create conditions to make it happen.

2014-05-03 16.00.57.jpg
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Daggers

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Post Sat May 03, 2014 11:26 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

No, there's no contact with the nose when the cover is off. That's great i'm not the only one with that mark on the inside of the cover, I feel like this could work! Now I just have to work on being able to hear the tomahawk touch the nose...
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CPT1911

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Post Wed May 07, 2014 3:31 am

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Hi Jared, so I've been keeping tabs on your study of the 3332. I like how analytical you have gotten on this. Great stuff, man.

Daggers wrote:No, there's no contact with the nose when the cover is off. That's great i'm not the only one with that mark on the inside of the cover, I feel like this could work! Now I just have to work on being able to hear the tomahawk touch the nose...


So I'm not sure I understand how hearing the tomahawk touch the nose will help you measure the relative depth of the fence into the wheelpack. How would it sound different over a gate vs. not over a gate. I agree that the wheel pack may have a different tone when the fence makes contact over a gate vs. not over a gate. That was one of my conclusions as well. But I am missing the value of the tomahawk touching the nose. Can you explain?

From my study of the lock so far, I agree IN THEORY that when the fence makes contact with the wheelpack over a gate, it should be visible on the dial. It looks like you saw some fluctuations on your lock! That's great, but unfortunately, differences in my contact points have not yielded any information about gates...it's been random.

Not sure if you ever saw this thread about safe door material. I posted a video of what the contact point sounds like under amplification on a steel door if you are interested:

http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8886&p=81931&hilit=safe+door+material#p81931

Trevor
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Daggers

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Post Wed May 07, 2014 1:11 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

CPT1911 wrote:Hi Jared, so I've been keeping tabs on your study of the 3332. I like how analytical you have gotten on this. Great stuff, man.

Thanks! I'm just really hoping we can all figure out how this lock can be defeated!

CPT1911 wrote:So I'm not sure I understand how hearing the tomahawk touch the nose will help you measure the relative depth of the fence into the wheelpack. How would it sound different over a gate vs. not over a gate. I agree that the wheel pack may have a different tone when the fence makes contact over a gate vs. not over a gate. That was one of my conclusions as well. But I am missing the value of the tomahawk touching the nose. Can you explain?

When the tomahawk touches the nose, the fence is always on the wheel pack. So the nose will be lower when a gate is under the fence and the tomahawk will touch the nose at a lower point. Same thing as manipulating a group 2 except you're using the tomahawk to measure the depth of the nose instead of the drive cam.

CPT1911 wrote:From my study of the lock so far, I agree IN THEORY that when the fence makes contact with the wheelpack over a gate, it should be visible on the dial. It looks like you saw some fluctuations on your lock! That's great, but unfortunately, differences in my contact points have not yielded any information about gates...it's been random.

Yeah I thought about it a lot and I think the reason is that when the roller lowers the tomahawk, it's not a direct relationship. The lever snaps down at a certain point; if we could gently lower the lever and know when it touches the wheel pack, then it would work I think.

CPT1911 wrote:Not sure if you ever saw this thread about safe door material. I posted a video of what the contact point sounds like under amplification on a steel door if you are interested:

http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8886&p=81931&hilit=safe+door+material#p81931

Trevor


I saw that, that's really cool! It REALLY amplifies the sound! If you spin left slowly as you were doing in the video but keep going after you hear the fence hit the wheel pack, around ~3ish you might be able to hear the tomahawk contact the nose. I'm thinking about buying me one of those amps but that would be in the future, amps are quite pricey!
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CPT1911

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Post Sun May 11, 2014 6:48 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Jared,

Thanks for explaining. I get your theory a little better now. Unfortunately, it seems that some 3332's have the nose to tomahawk touch that you found and some do not. Take a look at the pic of mine with the back off. I pulled the tomahawk out of the way so you can see the nose.
3332.jpg

For some reason, it doesn't touch on my lock. With the back off, I determined that they pass each other around 1 on my dial. Just to be sure, I replaced the back and put the amp on it to listen around 1. Nothin bro--silence.

I agree that the contact you found between the nose and tomahawk on your lock might be something to exploit, but I'll have to figure something else out on my lock!

Thanks for posting about this.

Trevor
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Daggers

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Post Mon May 12, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: LaGard 3332 Manipulation idea

Hmm, I see what you mean. Is there any back and forth movements with your dial? If you pull the dial towards you, that might get the nose to clear the drive cam.
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