Second S&G 6700 open!

[Mikeh727]

So I'm on the road again with time to spin and I brought my second S&G 6700 (a 6730) with me to try and open. It's open, and here's the story...

I've been practice spinning with my first lock, just learning to get a good feel for the contact points, working on dialing precisely, and practicing some of the shortcuts just to try and speed up my learning. When I started with lock number 2, I decided I would free spin and concentrate on the right contact point more than the left, although I still was checking the left. I started out parking W1 and W2 on 0 and working only with W3 AL. I found a gate at what I determined to be 79.5 and was off to the races.

And this is where things slowed WAAAY down!

I put W1 and W3 at my known gate at L79.5 and took W2 AR. I got nothing. So, I tried again, thinking I must have missed something. If that was the case, I missed it again, so I decided to put W1 @ 0 and try that way. Still nothing of note, except all three times I found a long low spot. I tried one more time with W1 & W2 AR together, and still nothing.

After the fourth failed attempt, I decided to go back to basics and graph, so I started again with W1 and W3 at L79.5 and W2 AR. Here's a picture of the graph. Note the dramatic lowering at about 75 and another dramatic lowering of the LCP at about 62.5. There was a slight lowering of the RCP at 62.5 as well, and when I amplified, I didn't find much but knew that a gate could sometimes indicate this way (although I don't understand exactly why). I guessed that the gate might be at about 61.5 and went with that.



It was a long shot that didn't pan out. I tried to BF 1 with W2 @ R61.5 and W3 @ L79.5. Nothing.

So I stepped back and looked at the graph to try and see what it might be telling me. Based on the fact that I had no real indications of a positive gate, I thought that maybe W1 was masking W2, so I tried again but this time put W1 @ L30, 50 increments from where it was. Here's the resulting graph.



I still had that same drop off at about 75 or so but two other areas that seemed promising, although still fairly subtle. One around 35 and one close to 0. I amplified both and decided the one around 0 was not worth the effort, but I found what I figured was the center of the gate at 36.5 and ran with it. W1 BF, W2 @ R36.5, and W3 @ L79.5.

I got to L22.5 and Click...OPEN!

Another great learning experience for me...R36.5 didn't show up until I got W1 parked someplace where it couldn't hurt me.

I've got my change key, and I'm going to start trolling ebay for more locks. The journey continues....

Thanks for reading this!

-Mike

[femurat]

I felt the frustration when reading about the many unrevealing graphs. It's a great thing you continued experimenting. That's how you learn.

Congrats mate

[LockManipulator]

Nice! Problem solving is always a great learning experience. Keep at it!

[GWiens2001]

Way to go! Love seeing graphs and hearing stories of accomplishment with spinning.

Gordon

[Oldfast]

Way to work it out Mike! Very nice.

I had some similar difficulty with a manipulation recently.
Ironically it was this one that I thought was SO EASY. lol

That's one of the things I love about manipulation....
just one lock can give you many different journeys

[Mikeh727]

Femurat, Daggers, and Gordon, thanks for the comments and encouragement!

Mike, nice write up! I'm slowly trying to get through the 'Chronicles' thread...there is so much information there I have to read through each manipulation a couple of times to make sure I'm following everything, but the information is invaluable.

I've spent some time reading your interpretations of your graphs, which is slowly starting to sink in for me. I can see that my graphs are showing me that wheel two is the one that is most likely the wheel with the highest and lowest areas since both graphs show kind of similar patterns and both were just wheel two. I think

On another note, when I was talking about my first S&G on another thread, you mentioned how having a sloppy dial can pose problems. I've been using that one to try and really refine my touch since the points are VERY mushy and difficult (for me) to feel. I've discovered that my results with that lock are anything but consistent, and while much of that is still due to my lack of experience, there is a BIG difference between that lock and my second lock that I believe has to do with how loose it feels. If I hit the contact points with the back off, I can actually see the drive cam shift just a tiny bit, which I assume is causing the very soft feel. While it gives me fits, I'm hoping that it will make other locks a bit easier to read.

Thanks for the comments!

[Oldfast]

....Mike, nice write up!....

So you can see the manipulation I linked to went fairly smooth. But what I meant was that I had a
different unknown combo in that same lock a couple days ago.... and it didn't go nearly as well. lol

The combo turned out to be 6 - 11 - 82. But similar to you, things went a bit south after finding the gate for w3.
I ran wheels 1&2 together and quickly honed in on an area around 50. But I just could NOT tag it to a wheel.
High/low testing gave me no fluctuation at all. I also spent time running each wheel through the area while
parking the other in various places. Nothing. I just could NOT accept the fact that it may not be a gate! lol

Finally, I instead used 50 as a low area to park w1 while running w2 around....
and son-of-a-bitch, there was a beautiful drop between 12 and 10. Hellooo there!
Ya just never know what you'll get. New numbers, new adventure.
Some come together perfectly, other times it's a cluster-fuck.

....I can see that my graphs are showing me that wheel two is the one that is most likely the wheel with the highest and lowest areas since both graphs show kind of similar patterns and both were just wheel two. I think

Good! It's always tempting to throw a new combo in and get to spinning again.
But the best opportunity for learning and experience is AFTER an opening.
Your right on track! Keep up the good work, and please keep sharing!

[CPT1911]

Hi Mike!

Great work man. Glad you started out free-spinning. I truly believe that you will soon tire of graphing and decide this is the way to go. Couple questions for you.

You mentioned that you tried a variety of methods to discover the second gate and none worked, until you started graphing. I agree with your idea that parking W1 @ 79.5 might have been shadowing W2's gate, but I question the results you got here:

I tried one more time with W1 & W2 AR together, and still nothing.

It is a rare occurrence that this test does not yield a slight drop on W1 or W2's gate assuming you hit the center of W3's gate. I can't help but wonder if you were a little fatigued at this point and might have missed something? If the combo has not yet been changed, it might be worth executing this test one more time. I would be surprised if you did not see a slight indication of a gate at either W1 or W2's value. One thought--sometimes I see indications so slight that I wonder if I only "think" I am seeing them. I take the measurements a few extra times and still I am not sure.....here's a trick....see if you "think" you see it for only three graduations lol. If you are bumping along with W1 & W2 RA, W3 @ [gate], and you think you MAYBE see a drop. Back off and amplify carefully. You may discover that you "think" you see it for only three graduations....if so. Its a fuckin gate bro! If there is one thing that has been consistent across multiple brands of group 2 locks, it's that gates really are about three increments wide. I've even found that to be true on the 6741 which supposedly has a 1.25 increment (more sloppy) dialing tolerance. So free spin that drill again and see if you have a slight indication for W1 or W2...

[Mikeh727]

Hey Mike!

So you can see the manipulation I linked to went fairly smooth. But what I meant was that I had a
different unknown combo in that same lock a couple days ago.... and it didn't go nearly as well. lol

Ah, now I'm following you. On my part, it very well could have been my inexperience and the fact that I stumbled across the gate could have been luck, BUT...I'm learning, and that's really all that matters. Nothing beats practice, but I find myself reading more now too. After getting inside a couple of locks from the outside, I'm learning that they can tell you a lot, even if I'm not fluent in the language. It turns out that when I mentioned on an earlier post that locks have personalities, those personalities sometimes are a bit complex.

Some come together perfectly, other times it's a cluster-fuck.

Lol...mostly the latter for me, which makes me work harder, but also improves my understanding of what the hell I'm doing!

Your right on track! Keep up the good work, and please keep sharing!

Good to hear, and thanks for the encouragement. I'm in for the long haul.


Trevor! Hey man, how's it going!

It is a rare occurrence that this test does not yield a slight drop on W1 or W2's gate assuming you hit the center of W3's gate. I can't help but wonder if you were a little fatigued at this point and might have missed something? If the combo has not yet been changed, it might be worth executing this test one more time. I would be surprised if you did not see a slight indication of a gate at either W1 or W2's value.

Very likely that I was fatigued. It was late in the evening when I was doing this, and as you can tell, it wasn't a quick piece of work. I haven't changed the combination yet, so I WILL revisit and see what I can find.

One thought--sometimes I see indications so slight that I wonder if I only "think" I am seeing them. I take the measurements a few extra times and still I am not sure

Oh man, that happens to me a LOT! That's part of the reason I take so long...I try to determine if I'm imagining something or really seeing something because I really WANT to see something!

.....here's a trick....see if you "think" you see it for only three graduations lol. If you are bumping along with W1 & W2 RA, W3 @ [gate], and you think you MAYBE see a drop. Back off and amplify carefully. You may discover that you "think" you see it for only three graduations....if so. Its a fuckin gate bro! If there is one thing that has been consistent across multiple brands of group 2 locks, it's that gates really are about three increments wide. I've even found that to be true on the 6741 which supposedly has a 1.25 increment (more sloppy) dialing tolerance. So free spin that drill again and see if you have a slight indication for W1 or W2...

GREAT information! Man I love that I can post things on here an you guys will look at what I did and realize that I likely fucked something up, or missed something I should have seen, and POINT IT OUT! Constructive criticism is what I (and all of us) need to improve and advance. The fact that you guys actually take the time to do that is great for me...THANK YOU!

Thanks guys, and I'll post whatever I find, then move on to the next adventure!

Cheers

Mike

[Mikeh727]

So free spin that drill again and see if you have a slight indication for W1 or W2...

Dammit Trevor!

Well, in a good way. You were right. I can feel the gate on W2 when I come back and do it again. Not a huge signature like there is when I park W1@50 and isolate W2, but big enough. I shouldn't have missed it. I ran from about 36 to 29 and it's there. There was nothing for the gate on W1, but that's not a big surprise. Fatigue might have been a factor, but that's only an excuse. What this exercise has done is to show me that I need to pay closer attention when I'm free spinning, and graphing too for that matter.

Also, it's shown me that I simply need more spin time. I can feel the contact points with no trouble, but the problem is that I'm not positive that I'm always stopping at the exact spot where I first feel the cam. Nothing is going to do that for me except practice.

Thanks for the pointers...they worked!

-Mike

[LockManipulator]

So free spin that drill again and see if you have a slight indication for W1 or W2...

Well, in a good way. You were right. I can feel the gate on W2 when I come back and do it again. Not a huge signature like there is when I park W1@50 and isolate W2, but big enough. I shouldn't have missed it.


-Mike

Most of the problems I've had starting out was reading related. The gates were all there but either I was riding up on the contact point when taking readings or not noticing the subtle change. It just takes time to get your eyes and brain used to recognizing what's a gate or not. Those tricky sob's can be very subtle at times!

[CPT1911]

Great work, Mike. I am not surprised at all that W2's indication in W1&W2 RA, W3 [gate] was more subtle than what you saw in the original test that actually revealed it. As I am sure you realize, the degree to which a gate indicates is determined by the relative height of the other wheels stacked behind it. Apparently, W1 is "higher" at R36.5 than it is at 50. This is one of the reasons that you can sometimes have success mapping a wheel pack every 10 increments then park two wheels at the lowest point you've found and spin the remaining wheel(s) in isolation. What you are doing is "lowering" the bottom of the indicating gate by putting the remaining wheels at the lowest point possible. This is a technique I commonly use on LaGard because of all of the shadowing on these locks although there are other, better techniques that are emerging for LaGard based on Alta's work.

Keep it coming man! You are doing great!

Trevor

[Mikeh727]

This is one of the reasons that you can sometimes have success mapping a wheel pack every 10 increments then park two wheels at the lowest point you've found and spin the remaining wheel(s) in isolation. Trevor

Trevor,

Okay, so I like this, at least so far. I've been playing with both locks for a couple of hours, just trying to feel some differences based on which wheels I'm testing, and this technique seems to work VERY well. I like it...my new starting point now.

Thanks!

-Mike