Found another floor safe!

[CPT1911]

Can't believe this happened again!!

If you saw my first post here, it was about finding and opening a floor safe we discovered in our house after living there for two years.

Fastforward--now with many hours of safecracking under my belt, my father called me a couple nights ago and shared pictures of a floor safe he just found in HIS house! He recently bought the place and began remodeling it. Tearing up one of the floors revealed the monstrosity pictured below.

Door2.jpg

Door1.jpg

Dial3.jpg

Dial2.jpg

Dial1.jpg

I think it is an odd one. There are no markings on the safe or dial and it looks pretty crudely constructed in my opinion. As my dad put it, "it looks like someone made this thing in their backyard."

The house was built in the 1940s and I assume it was original. I won't be able to put my hands on it until May when I go out to visit. The dial was frozen when he found it, but shooting a bunch of lube under the dial and forcing it in with compressed air has it spinning again from what I understand.

Anyone know what this thing is? Anything I need to know before I go open it?

Thanks!

Trevor

[LockManipulator]

It's probably going to be a standard group 2. Obviously not a direct entry as there is a lack of a turning handle lol. I guess just wait until you can give it a try and see if you can feel for contact points. If so, proceed as if it's a group 2 and hope for the best! Not the best plan lol but it's what I would do

[Oldfast]

A complete guess on my part.... but maybe a Yale?

The incs look a little wide on that dial. Bet you'd be fine without it....
but you might consider getting a needle point set up on the index.

You're amp should come in handy You'll know quick
enough if everything's in order before you start spinning.

[rerun12]

Dying to see whats inside! If there's a treasure map in there I'd be happy to lead the expedition

[Mikeh727]

Super cool Trevor! Looks like an hour or so of fun in your future...keep us posted.

-Mike

[CPT1911]

You're amp should come in handy You'll know quick enough if everything's in order before you start spinning.

Exactly what I was thinking, Mike! Do you agree that the construction looks really rough? I was surprised by the weld on the handle and lack of data plate. Other safes/safe components I've seen from this era showed a lot of attention to detail on the fit, finish, and construction. Kinda puzzled by that.

[Mikeh727]

You're amp should come in handy You'll know quick enough if everything's in order before you start spinning.

Exactly what I was thinking, Mike! Do you agree that the construction looks really rough? I was surprised by the weld on the handle and lack of data plate. Other safes/safe components I've seen from this era showed a lot of attention to detail on the fit, finish, and construction. Kinda puzzled by that.

Not to hijack the conversation here but maybe that weld is a repair or a replacement handle put on by a previous owner? As for the rest, I'm not familiar with floor safes but I wonder if the fact that it was going to be hidden caused it to be more utilitarian rather than both useful and decorative. The door looks fairly heavy duty to me.

-Mike (the other one)

[Altashot]

It's a Mosler.
Originally made to be wall mounted. That explains the handle welded on, normally it wouldn't need one.
It wont be very deep, about 8". The inside is likely lined with a fire resistant compound.
If so, there will be asbestos in the lining. It should manipulate as normal but it will have a Mosler hand change lock.

M.

[10ringo10]

I agree mosler protectall ... its in dave,s book and on savta - mosler list

[Railyn]

I love things like this.... I cant wait for an update on whats in it Please don't be empty!

[CPT1911]

Great responses guys!

I figured it would be an easy question for some of you. The fact that it is a wall safe converted to floor safe perfectly explains the add-on handle.

So I called my dad last night and we did some brief dialing diagnostics. The dial still is not spinning normally despite a few days of soaking in penetrating oil. We thumped the door a little with a deadblow hammer and that helped but he is still observing the following:

- Dial spins freely to the LEFT
- If he applies upward pressure toward the change index and spins LEFT the dial binds to a stop.
- Dial comes to hard stop going RIGHT at 93. (Without asking if it was a good idea) he put a pair of vice grips on it and blew past the stop at 93 going RIGHT. I was worried it was unlocked the whole time and he just broke something internally, but the stop at 93 shows back up each time he goes around RIGHT and can't be moved past with just finger pressure. I asked if it was a hard, metallic stop or just binding. He said, "It's like there's binding, as if perhaps something is out of round" so it might just be bent spindle or something...but I just thought it was weird that it only stuck that way going RIGHT
- He seems to be feeling a RCP around 15, but wasn't sure about a LCP.

Any feedback on these observations?

I assume this is basically the same lock as Oldfast descriped in manipulation 17 here: http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7432&start=135

So I should plan for R-L-R?

[Altashot]

I don't like the sound of that.
Weird how it stops solid. Normally if it was binding, no tools would be needed to get it passed the binding point.
Something might be broken...?

It it likely a lock like Oldfast demonstrated in manipulation #17 or very similar.
This one is RH so it will use L-R-L sequence then R would pull the bolt.

I don't have one of those locks on hand at the moment, maybe Oldfast can check his and see if he can determine
why yours stops at 93 and where the CP's should be? His was also broken, before I fixed it for him, so it might have had a similar feel? Oldfast! What do you think?

When you go visit your dad and try that dial, report to us, in your own words. Last thing you want to do is drill a hole in there. Asbestos is not something you want to mess with. Don't beat on it too hard either, there's a re-locker in there.

M.

[Oldfast]

Dunno if I can help.... but I'll definitely take a very close look at mine tomorrow and report back.

[Oldfast]

It it likely a lock like Oldfast demonstrated in manipulation #17 or very similar.
This one is RH so it will use L-R-L sequence then R would pull the bolt.

Alta.... just to be clear; so you're saying Trevor's lock is just the opposite of mine in terms of rotation. Correct?
With mine being LH, the final turn is LEFT (counter-clockwise). The lever drops in at 99, makes contact at 2,
and the bolt is fully retracted when the dial comes to a solid stop at 7. Just trying to get this straight in my mind.

I've been looking at my lock all morning trying to wrap my head around what may be going on. I just dunno!
Obviously, the most peculiar symptom (and our biggest clue I think) is the solid stop @ 93. And, the fact
that it's still reoccurring even AFTER your father forced passed it.... is also a bit of a brain teaser.

The RCP in my lock is 4. Dial stops @ 7 when the bolt is fully retracted.... a difference of 3 incs.
The LCP in my lock is 96. So it seems that 93 on Trevor's lock would be one of two things;
either the LCP, or, it's where the dial would come to a stop when the bolt is retracted.
In either case, everything seems to be pointing towards something going on with the lever.

To help the brainstorming/visualization maybe.....



and here's where the lever was initially broke....



Not saying your lever is broke, or if it would cause symptoms like this - I have no idea.
If it IS by chance broke in that area, you're fucked... you cannot pull the bolt. Wish I had
more insight... but that's why I'm not a safe tech... I just manipulate, lol. Same with locks;
sure I can pick em'... but I wouldn't dream of calling myself a locksmith.

Hopefully I've thrown out enough to at least get some others thinking. But it seems
to me that the lever is somehow making some MAJOR contact with SOMETHING.

Also, a last minute (probably stupid) thought... but what if this lock is set to
only a two, or even a single number combination? Just throwin' it out there.

[GWiens2001]

Might be as simple as a bent spindle since it can be forced passed the point. Though would think it would happen in both directions.

Gordon