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my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needed some parts

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femurat

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Post Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:08 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Thanks to all for the comments.

Neilau, the two switches are meant to be connected to an alarm system. The're described as open and locked micro switches by the seller and I know nothing more about them at the moment.

I'll keep you updated, but at the moment I have other safe locks I'd like to clean and mount so this one comes later.

Cheers :)
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CPT1911

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Post Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Hi Femurat,

Have you come accross mounting instructions for your 8400 or perhaps just figured it out? I picked one up last week, but I am little hesitant to start chopping spindle tubes until I figure out the correct length for the spndle tube and the square actuator rod that goes inside it. I just reeeeallly don't want to overcut it. The only instructions I have found on the SG website for installation do not cover this lock. Thanks!

Trevor
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femurat

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:57 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Hi Trevor, sorry for the late reply. I haven't found the instructions. I've mounted mine without problems but the spindle was already the correct length.

Cheers :)
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femurat

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:30 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

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So thanks to a very generous guy I got the dial I was looking for. Looks like it fits perfectly my lock, in fact I was able to mount it without troubles. I haven't hammered in the spline key for three reasons: this is a temporary mount, I'm going to make a wooden one as usual; I mounted the inner butterfly knob upside down; I'm not sure I have all the pieces.
I was told this lock was missing a ball bearing. I've searched for lock pictures and technical drawings and I was not able to find this ball bearing in other similar locks.

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Image

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Can anybody please confirm I need a ball bearing and where is it supposed to go?

I hope I don't need one. The lock works fine and it's possible to dial the combo, turn the dial back to zero and turn the small knob. This opens the cam and allows me to retract the bolt.
Once I close the lock I must turn the small knob back to allow the cam to turn again. This seems the normal way to operate this lock.

Here is the cam at 0 after I dial the correct combo
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I've turned the small knob when the cam was at 0, opening the drive cam, and then retracted the bolt
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So since the lock was working and I was happy I started checking if it was possible to manipulate it...
The first graph was just a test to see if I could feel differences in contact points at known gate positions.
Looks like I can: contact points are not the usual ones. Nevertheless there were differences in readings.
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The second and third graphs are All Wheels Left and All Wheels Right. I've marked the gates positions with dots. Actually they're a bit off because of rotating directions. I haven't thought about that when I marked them. This was a quick test with readings every two numbers so the areas are almost correct and definitely fine for these graphs scope.
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Looks like I can feel and measure difference in contact points. I'm a bit happy and a bit puzzled. Is my lock missing a ball bearing thus is not truly acting as a group 1 lock? Or I can theoretically manipulate a group 1 lock?

Cheers :)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:49 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

I do not see any contact points in the lock mechanism. What are these contact points?

A group 1 lock could be manipulated. UL just says that an "expert" needs more than 20 hours for this.

If you still have problems/questions or need parts, you could contact https://www.safeandvaultlocks.com/ .
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femurat

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:23 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Contact points are in this case where the nose hits the cam. The points are the inner sides of the sliding groove.
This is just my own method and it's experimental.

Thanks for the link. If nobody answers on the forums I'll look into that.

Cheers :)
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Riyame

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:48 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Um, where is the ball bearing supposed to be missing from? I can dig out one of my 8400s but I don't remember seeing a ball bearing in the mechanism itself. There is one under the lock bolt that applies pressure to retain the bolt open or closed.

Also I am quite jealous of that US stamped dial :P Lucky SOB
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If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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femurat

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Post Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Dunno where it's supposed to be. The guy that sold me the lock a few years ago told me it was missing the dial and the ball bearing. I suspect he confused this lock with another one he was selling.

Good call about the one under the bolt.

Since its working fine I'll make the wooden stand and mount it.

Thanks :)
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regina

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Post Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:15 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needs some parts

Yes there is supposed to be a small ball bearing detent with a spring under the bolt. On mine they were staked in. Not a critical item and should be able to improvise that or steal one from a newer 6730.
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femurat

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Post Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:57 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needed some parts

Here you are regina, my generous friend! :mrgreen:

I agree the ball bearing is not a critical part, specially for a lock on a wooden stand. Thanks for the confirmation.

So I went ahead and found the combo dialed RLR. I made a few tries with similar numbers to find the true gate centers. Turns out that I can open the lock if dial R8 or R9 for the first number, L25 or L26 or L27 for the second number, R49 or R50 for the third number. So the correct combination dialed the other way around is R8.5 L26 R49.5.
Now by looking at the graphs I see that the gates center I marked are off just a bit, in the correct direction. By correct I mean the graph may have revealed the true gate centers.
So it's time to get the combo changed by someone else, the lock mounted and then I can start manipulating it.

Cheers :)
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Oldfast

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Post Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:47 pm

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needed some parts

Exciting stuff Femurat! I'm eager to see how it all plays out. I've had
a couple of these for a while, but never got around to mounting 'em.
Too scared to maybe, lol. Anyway, I'll definitely be following along.

On the missing ball detent (aka timing ball) I agree it's probably not a real big deal,
but just a thought... w/o it there's a small possibility of experiencing contact float.
If the bolt shifts in or out just slightly, so too does the lever arm (connected to it) -
which will also change your CP's. However, your graphs so far seem good, so it's
probably nothing. Somethin to consider tho if things just don't seem to be adding up.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:32 am

Re: my new sargent and greenleaf 8400 needed some parts

Don't be scared by this lock. If I can get readings, I'm sure you can too.
I need to get the lock mounted on a proper stand and the combo changed before starting the true manipulation, so it may take a while.

Good point about the timing ball. I need to look into that.

Thanks :)
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