Walked into Academy and Opened a Liberty Safe!

[davewhitejr]

wow i never thought about trying wheel two the other way. Thanks for the post! I'm a locksmith in the central Texas area and much newer to safe opening than the rest of you. I learn a lot from posts like these. Thanks and more please!

[elbowmacaroni]

Careful with that locks on ebay thing... or you'll wind up like me with somewhere between 500 and 600 locks! Yeah, I'm not even totally certain how many but it is between those two figures and well, I honestly am not completely sure where all of them are at this point as they have scattered about the house!

Very cool on the second open there! And your style of writing up the details of your adventures is quite compelling, so I must say that I am looking forward to reading about your continued exploits!

-Elbow

Hi RoronoaDB0,

Can't tell you how much I appreciate it! The truth is, there are TONS of folks here who inspire me, so I am glad I could pass some of that on! You'll find that this is a uniquely positive, helpful community. Dig in to the Safes, Strongboxes & Combination Locks section. Lots of dedicated, analytical people who can help you be successful!

Good luck with manipulation. It is as addicting as buying locks on Ebay as you mentioned (I think I'm up to 14 now and I've only been at this since September!)

Trevor

[CPT1911]

Update: opened a Winchester safe today. A few fellow newbs have left comments that these excursions were helping them learn. I thought I should do a better job of detailing the specifics of the open. Most of you who have been doing this for a while will find this boring enough to make you vomit. But if you are an expert at this, please glance through and tell me what I should be doing differently!

Winchester “Bandit 9” Gun Safe

photo 1.JPG

photo 2.JPG

The sticker said the safe was made in Ft. Worth, TX which I found surprising since this is clearly a lower end model. Even still, I am learning that the differences in safe pricing seem to have more to do with the construction of the box than the lock—seems like most safes use a regular Group 2 Lock, even the higher end ones? Anyone care to comment on that assertion? For those of you who work in the industry, do you see many Group 2Ms or Group 1s?

CONTACT AREA

5.0 – 12.0

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION

pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:

.4.... 1.8 .... 2.2....respectively

The RCP was a little touchy—for some reason it was easy to bypass the initial “light” contact for a harder, more positive stop about .4 later. The LCP felt very solid however. Throughout the manipulation, I ensured I slowed down for a nice, light touch on the RCP. I’ve found I get a little “rough” when I am moving fast, so this was a good lock to force me to keep the precision in my touch, even after I was tired.

Sequence

W1+W2 @ R8, W3 LA: I started out by parking W1+W2 in the forbidden zone and taking W3 around left 2.5 increments at a time. Checked RCP only but backed up and went by 1’s checking LCP and RCP every time I honed in on an area of interest. I perceived a little drop in the RCP at W3 @ L27.5. I backed off, set W2 +W2 @ R8 again, and took W3 from 25 to 33 by1’s. There was nothing definitive and this indication turned out to be bogus. I made it all the way around on W3 and found nothing that screamed “I’m a GATE, bitch!”

AWL: I started back at 0 and did a run AWL, this time checking LCP and RCP. I’ve found that if a lock doesn’t seem to give away much with RCP readings, adding in the LCP into each check can give some surprising results. It worked this time. AT AWL 82.5, I barely noticed the RCP had come down by 0.2 but the LCP jumped up by .4. I refined and centred the gate @ AWL 83.

AWR: I don’t know why I did this, but I was not feeling super confident on my results. I decided to do a quick run AWR, taking RCP only as fast as I could. Honestly, all I did was needlessly add to my fatigue. But I did it fast—I’d say it took less than 3 minutes. Not surprisingly, I didn’t see anything. Okay, enough of that shit. Now, it was time to determine which wheel owned AWL 82.5.

This is the number one place I blow it, period. I fail to put the first indicated gate on the correct wheel, usually confusing it between W2 and W3. This time, I was determined to get it right.

Doing Hi/Low tests without a piece of paper to write down results is a little tough for me. I tried something new today that helped. After each test, I used my finger tip to “write” the wheel number and size of the CR on the front of the safe. I wasn’t actually marking the safe, just dragging my finger tip across the surface of the paint to help visually commit it to memory. Here are the results—I still remember them.

LOW TEST:
W3 under test: L83 – L83 – R73 (RCP 12, LCP 5). I traced “W3: 7” on the door to indicate that the CR was 7 increments wide with W3 under test.
W2 under test: L83 – R73 – L83 (RCP 12, LCP 5.1) “W2: 6.9”
W1 under test: R73 – L83 – L83 (RCP 12, LCP 5.3 “W3: 6.7”

These were not conclusive results. I felt confident that W1 was eliminated, but could not place it on W2 or W3.

HI TEST:
I ran the same drill using R93 on each wheel under test. Again, the tests indicated that W2 or W3 was the most likely candidate, but I really didn’t see the kind of strong results I was hoping for. I started to get that spooky feeling that I was about to fuck this up.

I tried taking measurements with W2 and W3 in isolation. I forced myself to do W2 first. This is the tedious one (is there a better way??), but I’ve learned my lesson so many times on the importance of thoroughly investigating W2 rather than focusing on W3 first. I decided to dial a few combos:

W2 Isolation:
R0 – L77 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L79 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L81 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L83 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L85 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0

I saw NOTHING on W2 at the suspected gate. I felt W2 was basically eliminated, but I decided to check W3 anyway.

W3 Isolation:
W1+W2 @ R0, W3 @:
L77: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
L79: RCP 12, LCP 5.1—CR 6.9
L81: RCP 11.9, LCP 5.2—CR 6.7
L83: RCP 11.8, LCP 5.4—CR 6.4
L85: RCP 12, LCP 5.1—CR 6.9
L87: RCP 12.2, LCP 5—CR 7.2

This cinched it for me. I went with W3 @ L83

At this point I was pretty bleary eyed, but I got a nice shot of adrenaline knowing that I was going for my next gate!

W1 @ L83, W2 RA, W3 @ L83: I took W2 for a spin right in isolation looking for the second gate. I didn’t see anything. I was getting tired....

W1 +W2 RA, W3 @ L83: I tried moving W1 and W2 together looking for a gate on either W1 or W2. I felt this was the next logical move as I have opened a lot of practice locks using this method. A full spin and I didn’t see anything. I looked at the clock and I was running out of time because I had to get back to work.

I thought back to my last open on the Browning safe and decided to try converting W3 to a right move and search W1 + W2 LA. I converted W3 @ L83 to W3 @ R82.5

W1 + W2 LA, W3 @ R82.5: I started at 0 and went up. At W1 + W2 @ L52.5, the gate appeared. I refined to L54 for the gate center.

I knew misappropriating the gate at L54 was my next chance to screw it up. I dialed a couple test combos:

R82.5 – L54 – R82.5: RCP 11.8, LCP 5.2—CR 6.6
L54 – R82.5 – R82.5: RCP 12, LCP 5 – CR 7.0

This placed L54 as being definitively on W2. I converted W2 @ L54 to R52, and knew I was ready to brute force W1. I looked at my watch and I was definitely out of time. I was also mentally fucking smoked and feeling really sloppy. I started to walk out the store, thinking I’d come back later and check it out. I made it half way to the door and whirled around. I decided to brute force to 50 and if I didn’t hit it, I’d have to come back.

OPEN: L24 – R52 – L83

1 hour, 4 minutes

I was actually nauseas when I finally left the store but pumped to have another open!

Couple questions for the group:

1. Is there a better way to isolate W2 versus dialing combos where you progressively move W2 through suspected gate location?
2. How do I “maximize fence contact” when testing wheels in isolation. I’ve heard this talked about a few times. Is this as simple as parking the wheels not under test at a known low point? Seems like I usually end up using 0 for no fucking reason whatsoever.

[Altashot]

Well! Another nice open up, good for you.

What a read!... well documented, in great details and told with emotions.
I'm an experience safe tech and I didn't find it boring at all. I didn't even vomit.

Most of what I see are group 2. Groups 2M and 1 are normally used to meet very specific criterias and are not typically used on "everyday" safes.

You already have a deep understanding of how a combination lock works and you are applying it well.
Experience will teach you a few things from here, you know how to do it, you just need to experience more locks
and get to know their "personalities". Many locks behave the same but others wont...It's important to have an arsenal of different methods to get a lock to "speak" to you sometimes, And you need to know how to read it. The way I see it, you are developing and discovering your own methods. In my book, you are doing it right.

When I manipulate, I try to "tune out" everything else. I focus on the task and remain calm. Frustration and anger don't open locks. I never graph but on difficult ones, I install my magnetic lighted magnifying glass and sometimes my Lock Amp. The more immerse I get in it, the better it is. It's a state of mind...

M.

[Riyame]

The sticker said the safe was made in Ft. Worth, TX which I found surprising since this is clearly a lower end model. Even still, [color=#FFFF00]I am learning that the differences in safe pricing seem to have more to do with the construction of the box than the lock—seems like most safes use a regular Group 2 Lock, even the higher end ones? [u]Anyone care to comment on that assertion? For those of you who work in the industry, do you see many Group 2Ms or Group 1s?

With most safes the construction/options has almost everything to do with the pricing unless you start getting into something like the Kaba-Mas X-09 lock since they run about $1000 alone. I found this video to be a great primer on differences and things to look out for when you are buying a safe.

[dbart]

The sticker said the safe was made in Ft. Worth, TX which I found surprising since this is clearly a lower end model. Even still, [color=#FFFF00]I am learning that the differences in safe pricing seem to have more to do with the construction of the box than the lock—seems like most safes use a regular Group 2 Lock, even the higher end ones? [u]Anyone care to comment on that assertion? For those of you who work in the industry, do you see many Group 2Ms or Group 1s?

With most safes the construction/options has almost everything to do with the pricing unless you start getting into something like the Kaba-Mas X-09 lock since they run about $1000 alone. I found this video to be a great primer on differences and things to look out for when you are buying a safe.

Thanks for posting the video Riyame. Very informative.

~Dave

[Oldfast]

....and knew I was ready to brute force W1. I looked at my watch and I was definitely out of time. I was also mentally fucking smoked and feeling really sloppy. I started to walk out the store, thinking I’d come back later and check it out. I made it half way to the door and whirled around.

Ha! Ya just.... couldn't.... let it go, could ya?!

I was actually nauseas when I finally left the store but pumped to have another open!

Yup, you got it bad, lol. Welcome to the club.

So first off I agree with others... I just LOVE your wording and the way you lay it all out as to what went down.
Also, what a cool store you've got there! Most of the stores around me seem to carry only a handful of safes.
There's a couple stores that actually have quite a few - but most tend to be either keypad or direct entry now.

I'm always excited to see a new post on this thread, and I usually try to read through your latest opening
several times. I want to fully digest it in hopes of learning, & also to see if there's anything at all I might offer.
HOWEVER, there's not much (if anything) to offer here really.

You already have a deep understanding of how a combination lock works and you are applying it well. Experience will teach you a few things from here, you know how to do it, you just need to experience more locks and get to know their "personalities"...............
The way I see it, you are developing and discovering your own methods. In my book, you are doing it right.

I agree with Altashot! And, you're learning at an incredible pace. Much faster than I did.

So this.

...I thought back to my last open on the Browning safe and decided to try converting W3 to a right move and search W1 + W2 LA. I converted W3 @ L83 to W3 @ R82.5...

Nice move.... and it gottcha the next gate. Very nice.

As to your question....

1. Is there a better way to isolate W2 versus dialing combos where you progressively move W2 through suspected gate location?

I think you're doing this right, but the way you worded it....
"dialing combos where you progressively move W2" ...made me wonder.
Are you parking w1, then working wheels 2 & 3? Or are you re-dialing w1 each time?

In other words, when you did this....

W2 Isolation:
R0 – L77 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L79 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L81 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L83 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0
R0 – L85 – R0: RCP 12, LCP 5—CR 7.0

....were you restarting every time by picking up all wheels and repositioning w1 @ zero for each one of these readings?
If so, you're taking extra turns. Remember wheel 1 is the 'rotisserie' of the wheel pack... we can "set it and forget it". lol
Set w1 at zero and don't touch it again while you're working wheels 2 and 3. However, I think that's already what you're doing.
If so, then proceed good sir, you're all set. And the answer to your question is no - there's no better or faster way to isolate w2.
(Well, not that I know of anyway)

...I tried taking measurements with W2 and W3 in isolation. I forced myself to do W2 first. This is the tedious one (is there a better way??), but I’ve learned my lesson so many times on the importance of thoroughly investigating W2 rather than focusing on W3 first...

I understand and can appreciate your train of thought here. I too have paid the price for discounting w2.
BUT, I'd still suggest investigating w3 FIRST. As you've already touched on several times here, we're
always battling time, for with it comes fatigue. Not only is w3 the most likely, it's also the easiest and
quickest to eliminate. If you have even the slightest of doubts, THEN check out the other wheels.

EDIT: Oh, almost forgot... thanks for that vid Riy. Found it VERY interesting.

[CPT1911]

Also, what a cool store you've got there! Most of the stores around me seem to carry only a handful of safes. There's a couple stores that actually have quite a few - but most tend to be either keypad or direct entry now.

Agreed! This chain of stores is good for practice because the employees aren't all that helpful so that means you tend to be left alone! I found another store that specialized in safes here, and I went in and gave him a big smile and a weird story about "testing" my future safe's security against some shit I learned on youtube. Ha! He basically got real stonefaced and weirded out, and off I without any practice. There is another store that specializes in liberty safes that has several higher end models. I reaaaally want to open some $4K flagship model or something, but I haven't tried it yet--I want to get a little bit faster first since I seem to be averaging 45-65 minutes and I doubt they'd wait that long.

So first off I agree with others... I just LOVE your wording and the way you lay it all out as to what went down....

Thanks, Mike! I'm glad you guys are getting some laughs. I got a reeeeaaaallllyyy good one coming up from my open yesterday. Beyond that, I've really appreciated the detail, thoughtfulness, and humble tone of your posts as well. Honestly, not to take anything away from all the other great folks on here, but you have taught me more than anyone else!

Are you parking w1, then working wheels 2 & 3? Or are you re-dialing w1 each time?[/color]

Yes, I park W1 and just move 2 and 3 as you discussed. I just expressed it as a R-L-R combo to be specific on the direction the first number was being parked. You are right to ask, however, as I used to redial every time when I first started...ugh!!

BUT, I'd still suggest investigating w3 FIRST. As you've already touched on several times here, we're always battling time, for with it comes fatigue. Not only is w3 the most likely, it's also the easiest and
quickest to eliminate. If you have even the slightest of doubts, THEN check out the other wheels.[/color]

So I'm glad you brought this up. I was honestly considering NOT sharing this with the group because I will end up making myself look like an ENORMOUS nerd, but I have spent the last couple of days modeling various manipulation sequences in Excel. Perhaps I'll share a little now and if you guys find this interesting I'll post more??

This all started when I did a root cause analysis of my manipulation failures and came to a startling realization. In over 100 documented manipulations, over 90% of my FAILURES could be attributed to one mistake and one mistake alone--putting W2's number on W3 or vice versa. I was always catching an authentic gate on my first spin, and if I placed it properly, I typically caught the second gate (although not always). The real problem lay in my ratfuck of hi/lows and isos that happens immediately after the first gate is found. I started thinking hard about hi/low testing, and then I noticed something else--my accuracy rate on a hi/low with ONE gate known was shit, but with TWO gates known, it kicked ass. So that caused me to think about ways of avoiding hi/low testing until two gates are known. And then it got fucking nerdy.

I began thinking about the menu of possible techniques when manipulating a lock, and how different approaches and assumptions cause us to choose different menu items. So then I put it in Excel and modeled three approaches and applied expected value theory to calculate a theoretical time to manipulate a given lock. Sidenote: in this context, time is merely being used as means of comparison. These times are not necessarily realistic, things don't always go in such an orderly fashion, etc. But to make an apples-to-apples comparisons, I used time. In a future version, I plan to use DIAL REVOLUTIONS. HA! That'd be some shit. Okay, so....

My overarching assumptions driving the calculations were as follows:

APPROACHES:
"Conventional"--basically find a gate, do a hi/low, find a gate, do a hi/low, brute force.
"W3 Optimized"--Find a gate, immediately assume W3, spin for next gate on W1 or W2, do a 2-wheel hi/low, BF
"W1+W2 Optimized" aka UNCONVENTIONAL and MY NEW FAVORITE: Find a gate, immediately assume W1 or W2, spin W3 in iso and find second gate or IMMEDIATELY DISCONFIRM assumption, go from there....this is my new shit boys!

I mathematically applied these methods against the different read orders and their associated probabilities:

READ ORDER:
3,2,1 @ 54%: Most people say W3 reads first 70% of the time. In my documented manipulations, it has actually read first 54% of the time, and always in a 3,2,1; never 3,1,2. However, I do not have much experience and have only worked with about 20 locks so far.

2,3,1 @ 44%: This one reads surprisingly often for me. There have been three safes I have failed to open in Academy and in every case it was W2 that read first but I blew it after that.

1,2,3 @ 2%: I've had W1 read only 2% of the time in my manipulations.

3,1,2 | 2,1,3 | 1,3,2 : Negligible. I ignored these in the analysis because they have never happened to me, although I know they are possible!

So the next step was to create the menu. I created a list of ALL possible actions when manipulating a lock and then assigned them a time to do the entire dial (where appropriate). Note, in a moment you will see expected times to complete given manipulation. Please note that for consistency, I always assumed the entire dial was being checked (i.e. 100 increments) although I often stop when I have a solid gate indication.

(Sorry for these shitty screenshots--PM me if you want the source file to play with and customize for yourself.)

photo 1.JPG

Next, I used each approach described above and pitted it against each of the read orders. I tried to estimate what my next decision would be after the result of each test. This allowed me to calculate an expected total time for each approach applied to each type of lock. For example, here is the W3 optimized approach.

photo 2.JPG

You'll notice that at the top there is an "expected total time" of 50.24 minutes. This was calculated by applying the read order probability to the time each read order takes: i.e. (54% x 47min)+(44% x 54min)+(2% x 55min) = 50.24 min. Changing the probabilities actually does not change the expected time very much. For example, if I put 70%, 20% 10% in the model I get a total time of 49 minutes.

Again, keep in mind that the times I am showing here are kind of arbitrary. A lot of shit can go wrong, and I tend to do A LOT more steps. The purpose of this exercise was to use time as a dimension of measure, to see if it REALLY mattered which approach I take....

So now, lets look at my new favorite....Take the first gate and ASSUME immediately that it belongs to W1 or W2, NOT W3:

photo 3.JPG

The expected total time got cut off there, but it's 51.3 minutes...

So why pick the W1 or W2 assumption?

Well, for me it all stems from the unreliability of the high-low test and the amount of time it actually takes to do one to completion. I put 5 minutes in the model for 3 wheel hi/low test, but that's only if shit goes perfectly. If I get weird conflicting results, then I find myself in a giant fucking time-consuming, inconclusive gangbang where no one blows their load. It takes more than 5 minutes.

BUT, if I park W1+W2 at the suspected gate, I can take W3 in iso for a full spin fast as fuck--probably as fast or faster than the hi/low gangbang, especially since I may not need to take the dial all the way around. Moreover, I am actually accomplishing the work of searching for a second gate at the same time. It's like finding your first gate, and then finding a second one during the hi/low you would do in a conventional approach. Jackpot. And for me, taking W3 around by itself is the most definitive way to determine if the first gate belonged to W3. If it stays flat and I don't see shit--I will assume the gate was W3's and proceed. If a second gate appears on W3, I have W3's gate known, and the first one on W1 or W2. A quick 2-wheel hi/low, which I know WORKS, will tell me the answer to that question.

The process gets a little sticky if it was actually W1 that read first. In that case, you will normally mistake the first gate found for being W3's and shit will get kinda tricky. The Hi/Low will eventually sort it out although it will take a little longer. The good news is, W1 reading first is in the extreme minority for me.

One last point, searching W3 in iso (W1+W2 @ Rx, W3 LA) is faster than searching W2 in iso like you would if you started out with a W3 optimized approach (W1 @ Lx, W2 RA, W3 @ Lx or W1+W2 RA, W3 @ Lx). In my approach, you don't have to park a wheel before each CP read.

So that's why it makes sense TO ME. In my limited experience, the fact that W3 reads first more frequently, does not mean that a W3 optimized approach equals a faster, more reliable open.

So, in a nutshell: Find a gate, assume W1 or W2 own it, park W1 + W2 at that location, take wheel 3 in isolation, find a second gate or disconfirm original assumption, proceed!

GUYS: I am reeeeallly putting myself out there with this one. Like I said, I wasn't even planning on sharing this, but since Oldfast brought up the W3 thing, I thought I'd toss this out there for you to poke holes. I know I am a total newb and have only been at this since September, but it's become a little all-consuming....so please realize I am not trying to sound like a know-it-all. I'd love to hear from the guys like Oldfast and Alta who actually know what they are doing...Looking forward to the debate this might create!

[faygo6]

Don't me ashamed of your hard work. Keep putting it out here. This is better than looking over someone's shoulder to learn, thats how I got started.

[Oldfast]

I was honestly considering NOT sharing this with the group because I will end up making myself look like an ENORMOUS nerd, but I have spent the last couple of days modeling various manipulation sequences in Excel. Perhaps I'll share a little now and if you guys find this interesting I'll post more??

Oh nonsense! I think it's FANTASTIC how you're computing your stats into some useful info! I look forward to more!!
Honestly, seems like something I'd do... but numbers/formulas/programs/computers... that kinda shit is just beyond me. lol

"W1+W2 Optimized" aka UNCONVENTIONAL and MY NEW FAVORITE: Find a gate, immediately assume W1 or W2, spin W3 in iso and find second gate or IMMEDIATELY DISCONFIRM assumption, go from there....this is my new shit boys!

....I am reeeeallly putting myself out there with this one. Like I said, I wasn't even planning on sharing this, but since Oldfast brought up the W3 thing, I thought I'd toss this out there for you to poke holes. I know I am a total newb and have only been at this since September, but it's become a little all-consuming....so please realize I am not trying to sound like a know-it-all. I'd love to hear from the guys like Oldfast and Alta who actually know what they are doing...Looking forward to the debate this might create!

I wouldn't dream of contesting this. Yeah, you already know it's not necessarily conventional. And yeah, some people might
say it's not logical (to run a wheel when you already have a known gate). However, at this time it IS a logical move for YOU.
In light of your own personal experiences, you've changed your method to create better results for yourself.

So, you thoroughly examined your failures - you narrowed down the root cause of them - then made changes to your method
to avoid your usual pitfalls? Seems pretty logical to me. Just like with picking, there's a lot of different ways and preferences as
to how to go about doing things. I myself prefer to manipulate with a RLR rotation. Not necessarily the norm, but if it leaves me
with an open lock and some pretty quick times.... hey, why not?

The objective is to eventually reach your ultimate preference. One that you feel is most efficient, accurate, & consistent for YOU.
The road to your personal MO is always filled with experiments & try-outs... some pan out, and some don't. But they're all
necessary to fulfill your learning curve! You may find your most recent method serves you well, or you may find it's simply
a portion/step of that learning curve. Either way, I'd say just keep doin' what you're doin'!! Very impressive so far.

[CPT1911]

Thanks for the comments everyone!

Either way, I'd say just keep doin' what you're doin'!!

You bet! I've had two more Academy experiences since I last posted. One that was my most vindicating, sweetest open yet. The other SHOULD HAVE been...but I got stressed and rushed something, didn't follow my own advice, and got my butt stuffed by a different Browning safe that should have been easy to open. Whatever, here's the story of the good open:

Browning "Pro Steel" Gunsafe

Browning Closed.JPG

CONTACT AREA

2.5 – 9.1

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION

pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:

.1.... 1.0 .... 1.6....respectively

So I cruise into the store and there's this big Browning safe that they have never carried before. I go there a few times a week like an addict looking for a fix, so I'm intimately familiar with everything they've got. I glanced at my watch and realized I had ZERO time to play safecracker....perfect, let's begin....

AWL:I took an AWL approach and immediately found a gate at AWL 22. The CP readings were nice and consistent to that point, with a sudden change that lasted from 21 to 23 ish. Then it returned to normal....this is like the ultimate gate indication, at least for me...no two ways about it....a drop that is about 3 increments wide is what I love to see!

Now, the whole point here was to try my new, unorthodox method of assuming the first gate found was on W1 or W2, and then attempting to disconfirm or find another gate by spinning W3 fast as fuck in iso. Consequently, my PLAN had been to begin with AWR, the idea being that I would be set up nicely for the right rotation of W2 if it turned out to be W2. But as soon as I found the gate at L22, I realized I had already dicked up the plan by going AWL instead of AWR.

AWR:Wanting to try the plan as I had originally intended, I decided I really wanted to place that first gate AWR. That meant a conversion....but where to convert to? W1 or W2? Naturally, W2 was more likely, but what if...

I decided to do a quick run AWR from 30 down to 15 to see if the gate appeared again AWR around 22. Guess what....NOTHING!


RANT: I hate that. I hate how a bunch of little fucking wheels are mounted on the same spindle, yet behave differently when the direction of rotation changes. Hey wheels, you are on the same spindle! I get that you fuckers are not perfectly concentric, or exactly the same size, this is how we defeat you! But it really blows my mind that your gates can disappear into the fucking ether by simply changing directions....anyway....

I did something kind of risky, and assumed that first gate at L22 belonged to W2, and converted to W2 @ R21. I moved on with the assumption Lx - R21 - Lx. I was about 10 minutes in and feeling pretty good in spite of kind of blowing the plan.

W1 + W2 @ R21, W3 LA: In keeping with my plan to avoid Hi/Low tests until two gates were known, I took W3 for a spin in isolation. I expected either:

a) flat nothingness that indicated the first gate I found was W3's, or
b) I nice, fat drop for W3's true gate.

I lucked out and got the latter. A nice gate appeared at L60.

Now, back to the plan. The hope was that I could do a quick two-wheel hi/low test and confirm the ownership of the gates. Since W3 @ L60 was found in isolation, I knew it was good to go. The true question was whether R21 was W1 or W2. I did a two wheel Hi/Low:

Hi/Low Test:

L60 - R21 - L60: CR 6.5 wide
R21 - L60 - L60: CR 6.3 wide

Ok, so these results sucked and suggested that R21 actually belonged on W1. I was really skeptical. I decided to try something different for the off-gate number: I converted R21 to roughly W1 @ L22 (since I first found the gate at L22):

L0 - R21 - L60: CR 6.2 wide
L22 - R0 - L60: CR 6.5 wide

So this second test indicated W2, but still not super definitively. I was pretty sure W1 would be the last to read, so I was just about ready to go Lx - R21 - L60, but I decided to do one final check:

Test Combos:

L0 - R26 - L60: 6.8
L0 - R24 - L60: 6.8
L0 - R22 - L60: 6.4
L0 - R20 - L60: 6.3
L0 - R18 - L60: 6.8
L0 - R16 - L60: 6.8

I obviously did not dial a complete new combo each time. Rather, I just parked W1 @ L0 and moved W2 and W3.

OK, so that looked really good for R21 on W2. I refined a little again and agreed that R21 was the place to be for W2. Time to BF W1.

Now the story gets kinda cool.

I've commented before how the employees in this place tend to treat me like a moron when I do this. I really can't blame them. Every now and then one takes a shot, like the pipsqueak who kept walking by and saying "safecracker." Anyway, this time, it was a little different and somehow more annoying. Here's what happened.

As I began to brute force W1, a small group of employees assembled a few feet away from me to talk to the manager. I didn't listen but it sounded like he was giving them direction about shelving shit or something.

So as I arrived at L30 - R22 - L60, the group dispersed but the manager remained. I felt this dude sorta watching over my shoulder and thought, "well, here it comes..."

So he's just standing there, kinda breathing down my neck. I'm still spinnin' but kinda waiting for him to say something. At about L40 - R21 - L60, he finally speaks up.

He sorta starts the conversation by chuckling at me saying, "do you want me to show you how?" I look over my shoulder and he is this tall goofy fucker who is not trying to hide the fact that he thinks I am an idiot.

Something about the dude kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I am NOT a cocky person by nature, but for some reason I was feelin kinda frosty, so I looked him dead in the eye and go, "no, I've almost got it open....I'm a safecracker."

He tilts his head back, laughs at me, crosses his arms, and fucking stands there.

I faked a confident smile, and turned back to the dial. I knew I had totally overstepped, however, and I was fully expecting that I was about to make myself look like a dillusional turd. But the Group 2 gods smiled on me that day. Two combos later...

OPEN: L44 – R21 – L60

41 minutes.

Browing open.JPG

I threw the bolt work open, pulled the door, and said, "betcha weren't expecting that."

His smile was gone and he goes, "Um....can you open this one?" He points to a little safe at the end that I hadn't worked on yet. "My employees accidentally threw away the combination."

Anyway, here is the funny part....I went back to the Browning safe once more after we parted ways and tried L44-R21-L60 and it didn't open! I must have just barely misdialed in my favor when I opened it and that was enough! Bottom line is I baaarely opened that sucker and narrowly avoided tripping over my dick while standing in the spotlight!

I love this hobby.

[GWiens2001]

ROFL

You should find that manager and ask him to show you 'how to do it' with the safe his employees lost the combo to. See how long it takes him.

Gordon

[Libertyclicks]

After each test, I used my finger tip to “write” the wheel number and size of the CR on the front of the safe. I wasn’t actually marking the safe, just dragging my finger tip across the surface of the paint to help visually commit it to memory. Here are the results—I still remember them.

I do a similar mental method if I have no paper.

Wheel 2

Wheel 3

-LC

[femurat]

After 21 and 60 I was expecting a 40

It's nice that you got a chance to play with another safe. I guess you were pretty tired since you just opened one.

Cheers

[CPT1911]

Hey everyone!

Just did another one. I’m finally starting to feel consistent!

These write-ups have gotten ENTIRELY too long, so here’s a faster rundown of the open. This is the same model safe that I originally opened when I started this thread:

Liberty Safe El Cheapo Model

Liberty 1.JPG

Liberty 2.JPG

CONTACT AREA

97.1 – 4.5

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION

pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:

.1.... 1.0 .... ? Never Got it ?....respectively

AWR:Went AWR and almost immediately found a nice fat indication centered at 80. RCP dropped by 0.4 and it was about 4 increments wide so I knew I was solid. Stop watch said I was at 2:10. I thought to myself…okay, surely I can open this fucker in 30 minutes! Wrong.

W1 + W2 @ R80, W3 LA : Went with my usual assumption that W1 or W2 held R80. Took W3 for a spin in iso left and noted a sudden drop from about 92.5 to 2.5, but it was too long and there was no “gate center.” I decided to ignore it. I blew through the rest of W3 and didn’t see anything (dumbass) and decided R80 probably belonged to W3 after all.

3-Wheel Hi Low Despite my consistent experience that a 3-wheel hi/low test doesn’t work for me, I decided to use one to confirm what I thought I knew—that R80 was on W3. I don’t remember the exact results, but the Hi/Low did barely confirm that W3 owned R80.

AWL: I did something weird at this point and decided to do a spin AWL. I have had the experience a few times this week in practice that a lock will read one gate going AWR and a different gate AWL. I tried it and saw a couple areas of interest. One that seemed to be around L15-17, and one that appeared around L27.5-32.5. I refined and amplified, but the variations were pretty slight. I wasn’t in love with the results I was seeing, so I moved to the next test (dumbass again).

W1 @ L80, W2 RA, W3 @ L80: The conversion between R and L on W3 was minimal so I just assumed R80 was L80 on W3. Feeling sure that 80 was on W3 at this point, I took W2 around right in isolation. I didn’t see anything interesting at all and suddenly felt stumped. Where was the second gate??

Something told me I had missed something and maybe I was wrong that 80 belonged to W3.

I decided to repeat my test of placing R80 on W2, and taking W3 around in isolation. However this time, I tried to take advantage of the low area I found between 92.5 and 0. 99 turned out to be about the middle of this “low” point. So this time:

W1 @ L99, W2 RA, W3 @ L80: I went more slowly and carefully this time. Remember that area of interest I found AWL between 27.5 and 31? It now looked like a gate centered at 30 on W3, but only just barely (0.2 increase on LCP, 0.2 decrease on RCP).

LESSON TIME:: I realized today that one of my most frequent mistakes is expecting a cavernous fucking hole when I hit the second gate. This seems to be the worst when the first gate I find indicates strongly by like 0.5 or more. I sort of get mentally calibrated after that first gate and seem to expect a similarly sized indication when I hit my second gate. Since this lock’s first gate basically punched me in the scrotum by half an increment, I subconciously expected about the same thing when the second gate made the scene. This closed my mind off to otherwise good indications, like the ones I saw AWL. But, as I work on more locks, I am finding that the second gate is sometimes more subtle than the first one. That was the case here. I was really not too sure that I even had a second gate when I started to brute force wheel 1, but with nothing else to hang my hat on, I went with L30 on W3 and hoped for the best…

2-Wheel Hi/Low Test: The last thing to do was confirm that R80 belonged on W2, not W1.

R80 – L30 – L30
L30 – R80 – L30.

The CR was much more narrow on the second combo, so I decided to move forward with Lx – R80 – L30 and brute force W1. I remembered the long, low section in the 90’s so I started the BF at L90 – R80 – L30, etc.

OPEN: L16 – R80 – L30

47 minutes.

Liberty 3.JPG

It kind of surprised me when it opened because, like I said, I wasn’t super confident on the gate at 30.

I also immediately noticed that W1 had also been indicated on my AWL test. That AWL test had actually told me everything I needed to know, but I just wasn’t “tuned in” or confident enough in what I was seeing. Anyway, I opened it in the usual time of 40-50 minutes.

Something cool: As soon as it opened, one of the store managers walked up to me and said, “hey man, I’ve been watching you, but I didn’t want to bother you…Um, what’s that combination?” I told him L16-R80-L30. He told me the combo they had was wrong—he went and got it and it was like L18-R81-L31 or something. I tried that really quick and he was right, it didn’t open. Don’t know if something slipped in the lock or what, but it was nice to be able to help them out.

Also, one of the other employees poked his head out of the office a few feet away and said “you scare me bro. Stay away from my house.”
Lol. These guys were actually pretty cool.

Biggest Lesson for the day: Trust weak indications when you are looking for the second gate. Don’t expect it to be as big or bigger than the first one.