I've decided I suck at this...

[CPT1911]

I successfully cracked one safe and thought I might become a decent manipulator. But I have since realized...

I suck at manipulation.

I keep looking at Oldfast’s tag line: “Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination." But unfortunately, my frequent failures have me more preoccupied with the DESTINATION! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve honed in on a B.S. indication, or found no indication, and removed the back of the lock in frustration to figure out what I missed. My wife has started deliberately forgetting the combos she creates for me so I can’t pester her to death for clues. Guys, I suck at this.

So here is my question: What do you do to TRAIN? To me, training means breaking an action down into its component parts, perfecting those sub actions, and then putting it back together—DRILLS! Short of setting a combo and starting from scratch every time, what else has helped you become better? My specific trouble areas are:

1. Consistently READING (not feeling) contact points: I am very confident that I “stop” at the precise moment the nose makes contact, but I am less convinced that I consistently read the dial the same way. Do you guys use stuff to help you read, i.e. corners of paper taped to the dial at the CPs, a needle affixed from above to help read accurately, vernier scales, etc.? I am actually designing a little magnetic base with an adjustable needle to help get a precise indication point because the painted line on the ring is not always enough for me. I’ve even tried wearing those massive magnoglasses that model ship builders use, but I only succeeded in looking like an idiot.

2. Spinning with confidence: I hate to be such an Oldfast fanboy, but he looks like a friggen autodialer. Why does it take me so much longer to maneuver the dial and check contact points? Is this just a practice thing or is there a technique to keep track of rotations when you are spinning fast?

3. Identifying the right wheel: Watching me wheel isolate or hi/low is like watching train wreck over and over again in slow motion. Let’s say I get a nice indication on AWL 30. My first move is to hi/low. Here’s my hi test: L30-L30-R40, L30-R40-L30, R40-L30-L30. Same drill for a low test, right? Guys, I RARELY get a definitive indication. So, I’ve also tried using a low point on the graph for two wheels, and setting the wheel under test at the possible gate to see if the contact region decreases further. Still, rarely definitive. And one of my locks indicates Wheel #2 first almost every time, so I don’t trust the “assume W3 for the first indication” thing…

For those brave souls that read all that, I appreciate your time. I hope to hear how you have gotten better at this!

[Altashot]

Manipulation is a technique that needs a lot of practice and patience.
It's almost like a state of mind. When i do it I tune everything out, that way it's me alone with the lock.

Like you mentioned, I sometimes stick paper to the dial and a thin wire on the dial ring for more accurate readings.
I make thin pencil marks on the paper and I visually divide each number by 8 or even 10.

As for speed, maybe you should find a way to keep your hand on the dial without re-griping all the time, it saves motion.

Take a look at the thread I started a while back. Oldfast and I had a bit of a discussion there.
Somewhere in there I explain my "economy" method.
It's called: Safe talk, with Altashot. Oldfast has some pretty good details on his manipulation thread too.

If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask.



M.
Edited to add picture.

[GWiens2001]

You have a few good questions. Let me start with your high-low tests.

From your description, it sounds like perhaps you may be expecting the contact points to get closer together when you find the correct wheel. The opposite is correct. When all wheels are at the indicating 'gate', the nose is at the low point. Moving the incorrect wheel will not necessarily raise the nose, increasing the contact points. But if you move the correct wheel away from the 'gate' indication, it will raise the nose, causing the widest change in indications - meaning your contact points are further apart. Then you know that wheel needs to end up parked at that number while you chase the other numbers.

If you get a copy of the National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation, you can copy the vernier scale and tape it to the face of the safe. It may help you make accurate assessments of whether it is 1/8, 1/4, or 3/8 of a number. As you gain experience, your eye will tell you more quickly. But some of us need an example to help us develop an eye.

The final point I will make is consistency. Use the same grip and the same turning pressure every time. If there is not nearly identical consistency, there will be varying readings, which will sink most of us.

How to get consistent? Three ways: Practice, practise and more practise.

Keep at it!

Good luck,

Gordon

[fgarci03]

While I'm no expert, I'll try to give you some tips that may or may not work for you!


1. More important than using a vernier is to read always on the same position. A vernier or pointer is great to make accurate readings, but if you read them from diferent angles, you'll have mixed results. I know this is a simple procedure. But, not on purpose, I've failed this and my readings were innacurate. What I do now is find a confortable position where I don't have to move an inch to rotate the dial and mark my results. Something really confortable, as you may be like that for more than an hour!

2. About spinning. Well Oldfast is a genious at spinnin'! He makes it look easy! I'm not nearly as fast doing it, but with practice you kinda get a sense of how much strength is needed to "spin it freely". One good way to practice is to set the lock to a known combo and dial it over and over again, faster each time, untill you can do it in a few seconds without error. You should also try to spin it very fast and stop at a given exact point accurately! Another thing is to dial the combos R-L-R, R-R-L, L-L-R, etc so you can get a grip of where the wheels are at any moment of the manipulation. I trust you can already dial that way right? If not, take a look at this: viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7937&hilit=how+to+dial

3. The tests... Boy those are messy. I'll tell you a way to make the tests. You can get mixed results the same, as the test is basically the inverse of the regular. But it's much faster and easier to perform!

Basically when you get a gate at, for example, AWL30. You test High on L30-L30-R40, L30-R40-L30, etc. Same for Low. You then look for the worst indication and the gate should be at that wheel (the one you set on 40).
Do the opposite. Test 30-40-40, 40-30-40 and 40-40-30. The same for Low tests.
Then look for the best indication. It should be the right wheel.

Why does this matter? In terms of results it's the same. Where a regular test fails (they do sometimes on some locks), this one will fail too as it's the exact same principle.
But this one is much faster to dial because you don't have to worry about dialing R-R-L or anything like that. Just dial L-R-L or R-L-R. Be sure that you get a L30 (in this case). The other numbers make no diference being R or L because they aren't being tested for gates.

SInce I've done this, my error rate decreased and I need to spin a lot less so I save time and at the same time I have less chance of making a mistake.

I hope this has helped you! I really like to see manipulators getting results (since I don't THAT much!) so I wish you GOOD LUCK!

[Neilau]

Hi CPT1911

I don't have anything to add re: technique but remember that if it was easy they would be of no use.

There are/have been a lot of engineers that have, for many years, been working to make it as hard as possible to manipulate these locks. Insurance companies rate these locks on how long it would take an EXPERIENCED professional to manipulate and that starts off at about an hour or more (I think)!!!! Someone here will give the times for the different ratings.

Even professionals can't manipulate every lock they encounter. Out comes the template and drill.......

So, what every else has said, practice and patience.

You don't say what make/model the lock is. Perhaps if you can get an older/different make lock to practice on.

Cheers.

[GWiens2001]

Also, am not the least bit surprised that one of your locks has a different 'indicating order' than the most common order. A lock can even be modified to change the order using several techniques.

Gordon

[femurat]

There's not much to add to what has already been said. I'd like to underline the importance of making one whole graph without interruptions, movements and distractions. If you stop graphing and came back later, it's better to start over again. I'm talking about a single graph, like the awl graph, not the whole set of graphs needed to open the safe. I used to make one graph at a time, leaving the next test for the next day. Not being tired helped a lot to keep focus on the reading, especially in the beginning.

Another common mistake could be the way you rotate the wheels after finding the first gate. It's important that you start at the correct point when reading the next wheel. It's difficult to explain, let's try with an example. Let's say you find a gate on wheel # 1 @ 30 Left. You park wheel # 1 @ L30 and proceed with 2&3 around Right. It's important that you read the other two wheels without moving the first one. So start at 30 and proceed around Right till 30, without reaching it, otherwise you'll move the first wheel.
I say this because it may look a good idea to start reading at zero, but this will cause a fake graphic once you reach 30... hope this makes sense.

Cheers

[CPT1911]

Like you mentioned, I sometimes stick paper to the dial and a thin wire on the dial ring for more accurate readings.

Thanks, altashot! I'll try combining the indicator with the pencil marks on the piece of paper! Great idea! I also read the post you referenced and found it really helpful. I had not come accross it before.

The final point I will make is consistency. Use the same grip and the same turning pressure every time. If there is not nearly identical consistency, there will be varying readings, which will sink most of us...

EXACTLY THE KIND OF SUBTLE THINGS I WAS MISSING! I did a couple graphs this morning before work and discovered that I was using varying hand position quite a bit! Sometimes overhand, sometimes underhand. Felt a lot smoother once I chose a hand position and stuck with it!

More important than using a vernier is to read always on the same position. A vernier or pointer is great to make accurate readings, but if you read them from diferent angles, you'll have mixed results...One good way to practice is to set the lock to a known combo and dial it over and over again, faster each time, untill you can do it in a few seconds without error. You should also try to spin it very fast and stop at a given exact point accurately!

AWESOME! Definately paid closer attention to angles this morning! And thanks for the rundown on your wheel isolation tests!

I'd like to underline the importance of making one whole graph without interruptions, movements and distractions. If you stop graphing and came back later, it's better to start over again. I'm talking about a single graph, like the awl graph, not the whole set of graphs needed to open the safe. I used to make one graph at a time, leaving the next test for the next day. Not being tired helped a lot to keep focus on the reading, especially in the beginning.

Great point, Femurat!

Thank you so much everyone. I've spent some time on various technical forums over the years, and it seems like many threads turn nasty quickly when the "experts" try and school the newbs, or get in arguments with each other. This is honestly the most welcoming, positive, helpful online community I have yet encountered. Thank you!

[fgarci03]

Awesome you found it helpful!

I hope to see a thread on your successfull manipulations!

[JA_Pruflock]

I love this ! I love this website I can't wait to get some formal education on manipulation. Where's a good place to start for free?

[GWiens2001]

I love this ! I love this website I can't wait to get some formal education on manipulation. Where's a good place to start for free?

You are already at a greatplace to start for free! Why settle for a merely good place? Search this site for manipulation. Altashot and Oldfast's manipulation thread are must-reads.

Gordon

[Oldfast]

There's not much to add to what has already been said.....

Already tons of encouragement and helpful tips and suggestions!

...So here is my question: What do you do to TRAIN? To me, training means breaking an action down into its component parts, perfecting those sub actions, and then putting it back together—DRILLS! Short of setting a combo and starting from scratch every time, what else has helped you become better?

Specifically, I'd like to throw in some of my thoughts in regards to training/drills.
I'm currently right in the middle of moving though, so I'm not sure when I'll have the time.
But as soon as I can, I'll put together some photos & thoughts on what I like to do for training/drills.
May or may not prove useful. At the very least, maybe it'll give ya some ideas for your own spin sessions.

Also, in terms of giving you some encouragement - I think the best way for me to do that might be to tell
you a little bit about how much I "sucked" when first trying to learn, HA! So I'll tryn' include some of that.

And don't ever make the mistake of marking your own personal progress through comparison. A perfect
example of this would be me when just starting out with picking. I could look at Xeo and be thoroughly
disgusted & discouraged, LOL, or... I could take a positive view, realize the insane time he's put in, and
use him as a source of inspiration to help me strive for excellence. Bare in mind at the beginning of my
manipulation thread, I acknowledge this will take years... and I was and still am prepared to be devoted.
Something else to consider is my wintertime excursions- I literally put in 8-12 hr days in front of a dial, lol.

On the back of my head is a specialized 'ego-valvle', lol, and you've certainly inflated my head a bit. lol
I won't short myself - certainly I've come a ways (with very little help) since starting. HOWEVER the road
I've covered is NOTHING compared to the road ahead. I have a loooong way to go. There's plenty of people
(some of them are on this forum) that are FAR beyond me. Only difference is they probably don't have the
time to document some of their accomplishments.

Lookin' forward to throwing some ideas out as SOON as I can.
(same goes for the question you recently posted on my manipulation thread)

[xeo]

Philosoraptor says:

In my experience, frustration is your worst enemy. It'll change your mind and shut all the doors that lead to sharpening your skills. When I get frustrated, I transmute that negative energy into positive energy and use it as fuel to move on. Just keep practicing and when you finally break that new ground you'll feel like a metal suitcase filled with crisp $100 bills.

[CPT1911]

...I'm currently right in the middle of moving though, so I'm not sure when I'll have the time...

I'm so pumped to hear about your drills that I'm about 2 seconds from buying a plane ticket to Michigan to help you move.... But seriously, good luck with that. Moving is such a pain in the ass. Hopefully, you have several large safes to tote around.

...I acknowledge this will take years... and I was and still am prepared to be devoted. Something else to consider is my wintertime excursions- I literally put in 8-12 hr days in front of a dial, lol.

That's really, really impressive. It also made me realize I must sound like a whinning b*tch, lol. I put about an hour a day in, sometimes more, but I've only been at it since September. Thank you for this reality check!!! And it gave me some renewed energy to get back at it. When people make something look easy, it's because they have put in the miles and hardwork to get there!

...same goes for the question you recently posted on my manipulation thread...

Looking forward to this too! I found the S&G documentation that shows exploded diagrams, etc. They also offer a recommendation on the appropriate lubricants, although I believe many of you use Tri-flow?

I have been in an Ebay frenzie and I am planning to build a bajillion stands this weekend. Current inventory includes a 6730 from 2013, 6741 from 2013, two older 6730s, a Mosler 302, an Ilco 67, a Diebold (looks like it was made by S&G tho), a 2M 6630, an 2M LaGard 3332, and a LaGard 3330. Most of them are sitting on the work bench, but soon they'll be ready! I'll post some pics!

[Oldfast]

Gonna tryn' at least semi-address your question here.
And I hope it leaves you with some ideas to run with!

So here is my question: What do you do to TRAIN?

A while back, I made this sheet up. The numbers are spaced evenly so they show through the holes on various templates.
Using this sheet of 180 numbers, coupled with these templates... some preEEetty hellacious spin sessions can be created

One of my templates is missing from this photo. Also, you really don't need all these. The 3-hole template would actually
be plenty to work out all variations. Just make a couple somethings you can use to cover or reveal two of the three holes.



So you might laugh, but the first thing I used this sheet for was to remember 3 numbers in any order! lol
That's right, I couldn't even do THAT. Give it try right now... choose 3 from any row, column, or diagonal.
Then turn to your wife and talk to her for a sec. Now, without looking, recite these numbers backwards.

If you found that quite easy you're already a step ahead of me, lol. So I continued working with this.
Any dead time in the office or car was used for 'number dancing'. Eventually, I was able to not only
remember 3 numbers in any order, but could also remember the previous 3 that I had worked with.

And yes, manipulation does require that we remember more the 1, 2, or 3 numbers at any one time.
Especially true if we're free-spinning with no graph. In addition to single numbers, we might want to
commit to memory a certain area - a span of numbers (i.e. 62-78). This area could later be used for
parking, or, we might want to zero in on it when running the next wheel to see if there was a gate
lurking in there (it could save you from exploring the entire circumference of a wheel).
I'm also realizing that with some locks it's useful to not only note low points, but also high points.
With other locks, I can barely feel the wheels pick each other up. With these locks I'm forced to
keep track of where I'm at by the numbers rather than by feel. So again, more to remember.

In addition to all this, you might want to keep in the back of your mind the pickup differences
you found for each wheel at the start of the manipulation, lol. So believe me, everything will
just run MUCH easier and MUCH faster if your memory bank can swallow at least 6 numbers.

To shorten your learning curve here, don't stay on any 3 numbers for too long. Keep your mind dancing.
If you find you're frustrated most of the time... that's good. It's just like body building; we frustrate the
muscle fibers by bringing them to absolute complete failure. This forces them to adapt and grow bigger.

So now let's set this sheet next to a dial
Really, you've already said it perfectly.....

To me, training means breaking an action down into its component parts,
perfecting those sub actions, and then putting it back together......

I know this is a somewhat simplified statement, but.... the majority of a manipulation consists of
parking one or more wheels while running/reading the other wheel(s). In which order this occurs
is dependent upon the lock and what wheels reads first, second, and last. Some of these orders
are unlikely, but nevertheless possible... so we train for all scenarios. Most to least likely:

321 ... 231 ... 123 ... 213 ... 132 ... 312

So you can imagine how we play out a fake manipulation through the use of a template. Be sure
to go through ALL the motions though! Lets say for example, you reveal a number (gate) for w3.
Work your way around, taking your readings, until you reach that number. Then go through the
area again as you normally would, amplifying to find the true center. Now perform your hi/low
tests and/or isolation to determine which wheel the gate belongs to. Naturally, we'll pretend
our tests indicate w3. Now we reveal a second number (gate). Work your way towards it,
each time placing w3 on its' now known gate. And so on.

Also, most scenarios leave us with more than one option in which to proceed. In this example
we found the gate for wheel 3. From there, I can do one of two things. Run wheels 1 & 2
together, or I could park 1&3 to run w2 by itself. I play out both just for the practice.

Now, one could argue that all this and more could be achieved through real manipulations.
This is true and I would agree. I've run many, MANY manipulations through all of the locks in my
collection, and continue to do so. And with each one I become a little bit better because of it.
Not to mention, I love hearing the sound of the fence droppin' in just as much as the next guy!

However, during an actual manipulation it seems a large portion of our brain can be gobbled up.
We can become pre-occupied with other things. For one, an opening! And if that does not occur,
or maybe does not occur as quickly as we'd like..... frustration sets in and learning stops. Or we
might become very focused on our readings - debating and splitting hairs over each & every one.

Fake manipulations takes all this out of the equation. It seems to free up the brain, allowing us
to focus on some of the other things that are going on. Reasoning, strategy, rotations, keeping
track of where you're at in the wheelpack, what exactly it is that you're doing & why, what you
want to do & how to go about doing it, etc. Eventually some of these things start to become as
natural as breathing. You don't have to think so hard about how to do somehting, you just do it.

Don't short yourself. Your first manipulation, given the circumstances, was amazing man!
And after seeing some of your most recent posts in regards to manipulation, I can clearly
see you're learning at an incredible pace. It won't be long before I'm asking YOU the ?'s

And bare in mind, what I've presented here is by no means all-inclusive. Much of it has been left open-ended.
I have no doubt though that you'll fill in the blanks and round out your sessions to include everything you need.

Anyway, this has become rather lengthy, lol. Besides that, I start feeling uncomfortable when I
re-read some of my stuff and it starts sounding like I know what the hell I'm talking about LOL

So you might decide to sit down for an all out spin session that touches on all facets of your game. Or,
you might spend a session that's devoted to honing just a single skill. With some things, a sheet like
this can help introduce some randomness. With other things, you'll find you don't need it at all.

The Wheelpack: know where you're at within it at all times! Initially, I think this is one of the biggest hurdles we face.
It's very easy to get lost. For example, if I were to delve into a 4-wheel lock (which I've not done yet), I would certainly
become disoriented at times. My first order of business would be to get familiar with the rotations required to move
through the wheelpack. Until then, there's really no sense in me starting the manipulation.

There are many facets to this game, but ALL roads lead back to this one. Your initial focus should be here. It is by far the
single most important thing before you delve too far into anything else. I don't care if you're able to take readings that are
measured in a billionth of a cunt hair - if you're reading 2 wheels when you thought you were reading only 1 - you're fucked.

Rotational Conversion: positioning a wheel in the same place regardless of what direction you dial from.
The differences that occur vary not only from lock to lock, but from wheel to wheel within a lock.
It's certainly worth you're time to understand why this happens and how to utilize it.

Wheel isolation: running/reading a single wheel while parking others. You might run the entire circumference of a wheel
looking for a gate. Or you might only explore a small portion of it in an effort to tag an indication with a wheel. Isolation
is a HUGE tool that is used often. Devote enough time to it until it happens quickly, requiring very little thought.

High/low testing: Believe me, I share everyone's frustrations as to the incosistencies that can occur with these.
Yet I find it to be a valuable tool worthy of my time. On a sidenote: if you're clearing the dial before each test,
you're adding needless rotations & time. Test w3, w2, w1. This is the natural order in which they pick up anyway.

Readings: Should an increment be broken down into eighths or tenths? And should we read every 2.5 incs or 2 incs?
Depends on the lock you're dealing with really. So I like to mix up my sessions to stay fast and familiar with both.
What you identify as 5/8 might be slightly different than what I see it as. That's fine, as long as you're consistant.
Be definitive and stick with it.

Insane repetition: Possibly your second best friend in this game. With each turn, each hour, each manipulation...
comes experience, learning, intuition, confidence, speed, accuracy, and efficiency. The amount of time (or lack
there of) you spend in front of a dial will show through in your end game.

I consider myself just slightly above a beginner at this point. Not to short myself - I've come a long ways since starting.
And I like to say that 'I am not talented or naturally gifted... I'm simply devoted in a borderline obsessive manner.'
When I say this, people always think it's my attempt at being humble. It's not. With many things, I find I have to
work twice as hard just to do something equally well as the next guy. That's just the way it is for me.

For those brave souls that read all that, I appreciate your time. I hope to hear how you have gotten better at this!

Right back at ya! Really though, I truly hope this helps you in some way or another.
Take what ya can & leave the rest. And for fucks sake... don't believe everything I've said! lol