How long to manipulate average Group 2?

[CPT1911]

Ok fellas...so I am definately still a newb, but I've been soaking up all your wisdom over the last few months and training quite a bit on a mounted S&G 6741, and here's the question:

How long does it take you, on average, to manipulate a group 2?

My wife and I tried working together as a team over the weekend, she spun and called out CPs, I graphed and advised...and it took us fully 35 minutes to find the first gate...

Meanwhile, I have seen posts where guys talk about doing this in 15 minutes...even less.

Obviously, graphing slows you down, so maybe that's the question, how fast can you do it when graphing?

Here's my process:

1. Graph 1 AWL, move by 2.5, look for good gate signatures (25-30 min)
2. Amplify gate signatures (5-10 min)
3. Hi/Low/Baseline/Wheel Iso tests as required (5-15 minutes)
4. Cursing, swearing, confusion, beer (5 minutes)
5. Graph 2, leave found wheel on its gate, iso the other two AWR (30-45 minutes because of more dialing)
6. Amplify gate signatures (5-10 min)
7. Hi/Low/Baseline/Wheel Iso tests as required (2-5 min because fewer combos)
8. Brute force the final number (depends)

So practice makes perfect an all that, but there must be some secrets and short-cuts floating around out there that take that process from 2 hours to 10 minutes...or are you just telling me it's practice???!!

[LockManipulator]

It takes me about 5-10min now. If you want to go for speed, don't graph. Just pay attention to when there's a drop and amplify that area. For even faster (and slightly more risk of spending even more time) just assume it's the 3rd wheel indicating and keep going. The next number to pop up will most likely be the 2nd #. But sometimes the 2nd and 3rd wheel can indicate on the first go around and you might hit the 2nd first. Hi-low tests don't take too long so I still do them but not doing them shaves off some time but also adds risk.

[Altashot]

I don't graph either. Like Daggers, I look for the gates signatures.
I start with the entire wheel pack and often find the 2nd number first.
Just the other day, I spun one off in about 8 minutes but this was my fastest, normally, Including set-up time,
I take anywhere from 15-20 minutes to 2 hours or more...Some I don't get at all.

To me, it's not about speed.
I was taught to take my time and take good readings, look for clues, take regular breaks, it's not a race, favor accuracy over speed, visualize, and hold an "unlocked!" picture in your mind...

Cursing, swearing, confusion, beer...
Welcome to the club!

M.

[oldlock]

I'll just make a comment here. If you don't graph and you miss something you might as well have not bothered. Some locks, especially the newer locks have very subtle changes, I also find that reading every 2.5 numbers can drop you into a world of hurt with newer locks too.

Well worth erring on the side of caution, record your findings and take your time. I do so and my average time for a 3 wheel group two is in the region of an hour. I very rarely fail to open the lock within this timescale.

[CPT1911]

Great comments guys. I really appreciate it.

...I'll just make a comment here. If you don't graph and you miss something you might as well have not bothered...

I agree, oldlock. I've spun for the first number without graphing a few times, and luckily I found it. But it also occurred to me that if I missed it, I would have no record of other clues to work from.

Dare I ask...

What about a group 2M?? Anyone manipulated S&G 6630s or LaGard 3332s?

I've got samples of both now and have played with them a little. Seems like the contact points on the 6630, while mushy, can be easily read. But you've got the false gates to contend with. The LaGard 3332 is a totally different story. I have no clue where to start. So anyone working with the 2M locks?

[Oldfast]

...My wife and I tried working together as a team over the weekend, she spun and called out CPs, I graphed and advised...

I just think that's SO wonderful! The two of you enjoying something together. Yeah, very cool

Starting out, I remember manipulations that lasted days, lol. Then it was hours. Then minutes.
Certainly, graphing slows the process considerablely. But as oldlock mentioned- by not graphing
you run the risk of missing something and it taking even longer. I remember some of my thoughts,
frustrations, and results when I first took the leap and made the decision to drop my pencil.
Also, I agree with oldlock in regards to 2.5 incs sometimes being too much for certain locks!

My average time? Not really sure... but if I did know, I'd probably not be all too happy with it. lol
I've had plenty in the range of 6-12 mins. Even one that was concluded in approximately 3........
HOWEVER, if you average in the hour+ manipulations (the one's you won't see on my channel, lol)
along with my numerous fails.... well.... then that number quickly becomes not so impressive!

Nowadays, I don't think so much in terms of time (although I'm ALWAYS pushing my limits). In fact,
many of my practice sessions don't even involve looking for a gate, let alone going for an opening.
It's all about insane repetition. Everything becomes as natural as breathing.

One of the biggest differences for me in comparison to when I first got started: Today, I simply think about
WHAT it is that I want to accomplish, and put very little thought into exactly HOW it is that I'm going to do it.
When I first started, I couldn't even remember 3 numbers! Let alone where the hell I was in the wheel pack! LOL

....but there must be some secrets and short-cuts floating around out there that take that process from 2 hours to 10 minutes...

Skip step 4!!

[GWiens2001]

Correction - skip all but the last part of step 4. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water!

Gordon

[rai]

So a machine can brute force try all the combs in a few hours,
couldn't a machine be smart enough to manipulate?
That would be a challenge for the geniuses here to think about.
or am I missing something, perhaps its already done.

[LockManipulator]

So a machine can brute force try all the combs in a few hours,
couldn't a machine be smart enough to manipulate?
That would be a challenge for the geniuses here to think about.
or am I missing something, perhaps its already done.

Yup, it's been done. I think it's called the soft touch or something. I can't quite remember the name but I think Oldfast knows what it is.

[GWiens2001]

There are a couple that I am aware of. Not exactly cheap!

Gordon

[houdini1]

i use the v3 asstistant which plots my graphs 1 range between 15/20 min on the 3 wheels
yale ilco chubb s&g lagard and also the big red and 40/50 on a 4 wheel i only run wheels in tens to find the code my best uptil now on a 3 wheel s&g is 34 reads

[Oldfast]

So a machine can brute force try all the combs in a few hours,
couldn't a machine be smart enough to manipulate?
That would be a challenge for the geniuses here to think about.
or am I missing something, perhaps its already done.

Yup, it's been done. I think it's called the soft touch or something. I can't quite remember the name but I think Oldfast knows what it is.

Yeah, the Soft Drill. Approximate run time with a Group 2 lock... about 20 minutes. Give or take.
I had seen a video demonstration of it. I found it to be rather interesting and talked a little bit
about it here in manipulation #14. On a much smaller/sloppier scale, I tried to mimic its' method.