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Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:27 pm**

Hello!

Inspired by Oldfast and Femurat, I'm starting to learn manipulation. This will be the thread where I'll post all my findings, successes and difficulties.
For now, I only have one lock, a LaFebure 1800. While I don't have others, I'll be doing a lot of experiences with it:

- Different combinations
- Speed tests
- Different methods
- Studying graphs with KNOWN combinations, so I can see differences on the areas without having to go untill the end
- And a lot more

Eventually I'll play with a safe, but I don't have access to it on a daily basis.

For starters, I susbscribe to the terminology post Oldfast made on his thread (if you know it already, it's the same. If you don't, it's here. Read it, it will worth your while :mrgreen:

)

I will also post my failures, so I (and hopefully someone else) can learn from them.
With that said, let's get down to business!

:mrgreen:

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:28 pm**

Even though I have little interest in manipulation... I enjoy reading the endeavors. Looking forward to it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:31 pm**

Same here.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:31 pm**

Manipulation 1: Failed attempt

Group 2 LeFebure 1800 with SpyProof Dial
This is my first assembly. Not great, but workable :razz:

So.. I started off. Made the first graph and spotted 2 suspicious areas.

(click the image to enlarge)

Chose the one who seemed more like a gate (the one marked with 1)
Then I mapped it to see where the gate was. And found 83. Just to be sure, I cheated, and looked behind the lock. That's when the problems started...

The gate was actually at 85, not at 83 like it seemed on the graph. Went back to read femurat's post and I found this:

femurat wrote:When you have drawn the small graph, you should see a distinct narrow area. This is the gate, mark its centre, it's one of your combination numbers!

It's centre. Does it mean the center of the high area (where I marked the second arrow with an "?")? Or the peak of the graph (at 85)?
If it's the first choice, I learnt it by now. But if not, as I suspect it's not, what does this mean? Why the graph reveals 83 as the gate number and it's actually 85? I reviewed my readings and they were correct...

Anyway, I continued, using 85 as a gate number, and started to test which wheel it was (when I looked at it, I saw it was on the 2nd).

So by testing 75-85-85, 85-75-85 and 85-85-75. So it seemed it could be either W2 or 3 (at least they are the ones with the biggest contact area) So tested 95-85-85, 85-95-85 and 85-85-95. Inconclusive.. Everything pretty close to each other.

What did I miss here? :???:

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:25 pm**

Your first high-low test looks that there is a high spot at 85 on wheel one. When wheel one is moved away from 85, the contact area gets smaller.

As the nose of the lever drops further into the cam, the contact area gets smaller. This is because the sides of the drop in area get closer together the further into the drop in you go. So you are looking for the smallest contact area.

The second high-low test shows that when the #1 wheel is at 95, the contact area gets larger, meaning that the fence is being held higher, and the nose of the lever can not drop as far into the cam. Wheel one appears to be shadowing the gate you saw at 85.

Judging from what I see in your graph, the wheels in your lock are not round, but oval in shape, similar to the Diebold and (I think) LaGard locks. If you find the (or a) low spot on wheel one, and park wheel one there, you should be able to find your gates more easily.

I could well be wrong, and hopefully Oldfast or one of the others will chime in and correct me!

Gordon

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:46 pm**

Well, as for the hi-lo tests, forget them. I did them wrong.

Every 85 I dial must be to the right. Like L75-R85-R85 or R85-R85-L75. I did all like R-L-R. So these results are false.

I did them again (I'll have to re-check to see if I did them right, as it's my first time dialing R-R-L - just figured out how to do it right now!).
So, replace the contact area numbers by:

8.8 - in L75-R85-R85
8.8 - in R85-L75-R85
9.6 - in R85-R85-L75

and

8.9 - in L95-R85-R85
8.9 - in R85-L95-R85
10.9 - in R85-R85-L95

And now. It leads me to believe the gate is on the 3rd wheel, right? But it's not. It's on the 2nd...
And still haven't figured out how the gate was on 85 and not on 83...

GWiens2001 wrote:Judging from what I see in your graph, the wheels in your lock are not round, but oval in shape, similar to the Diebold and (I think) LaGard locks. If you find the (or a) low spot on wheel one, and park wheel one there, you should be able to find your gates more easily.

Yes I do think so too. But I still struggle with the concept of parking, need to study that further...

Tomorrow morning I'll re-check these readings, as now I'm with a headache. But I did them with great caution, so I believe they are correct.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:00 pm**

I am glad that you did your headaches with great caution. You wouldn't want them to go away due to neglect, would you? ;-)

Gordon

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:33 pm**

When dialing your numbers, if you don't reverse direction with each number you move the last number dialed. example: L60-R85-R85, the first 85 will not be at 85 any more. It will be moved when you continue to dial the same direction. Since you have a lock to look into, check it out. The second wheel will not stay parked. As you dial one of these locks you are pushing the wheels, unless you change direction, the gate will not park and will be pushed to a new location.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:34 am**

Hey fgarci03. Good to see you working a dial. Prepare for some hardships but it can be sooooo fun as well.

fgarci03 wrote:Well, as for the hi-lo tests, forget them. I did them wrong.
Every 85 I dial must be to the right. Like L75-R85-R85 or R85-R85-L75. I did all like R-L-R. So these results are false.

MMhmmm. I dislike hi lo but it was also because I was doing them wrong at first. I was going to chime in about direction you rotate being very important but it seems you got it. And I think I recall from your findings after that you placed it on wheel3. Good stuff.

fgarci03 wrote:And now. It leads me to believe the gate is on the 3rd wheel, right? But it's not. It's on the 2nd...
And still haven't figured out how the gate was on 85 and not on 83...

Uhhhmmmmm hmmmm... Ok well I'd like you to make sure that the gate IS on w2 with RIGHT 85. I'd be willing to bet the gate is at LEFT 85 on w2, but you found it on a wheels RIGHT graph and therefore it's at 83 instead (direction direction direction).

I'm not familiar with lefebure locks but my LaGard locks both have a nasty habit of giving me completely BOGUS information when I do hi lo tests. Your lock might be the same and you may need to find other ways to test it. Just as GWiens2001 has said, the wheel shapes being strange can cause hi lo's to tell you the wrong wheel for a gate.

Keep going you're doing great and keep us posted!
Libertyclicks

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:23 am**

Hey fgarci03, I'm happy I've inspired you :mrgreen:

I like very much how you're graphing your readings, at first I thought I was looking at one of my old ones!

About finding the gate center, it makes sense if the gate has a typical shape _---_ or _--_ or _----_ but if it's like this _-_ there's no need to find it's center because the only high point is the number you're looking for. The last case is quite uncommon, since the gate allows some error, so there should always be at least two narrow points _--_ on the curve.
By looking at your graph, on the top curve there are two narrow points at 83 and 84, so the top area center is at 83.5.
And on the bottom curve there are 83, 84, 85 and 86... so the bottom area center is at 84.5.
In theory the gate center should be (83.5 + 84.5) / 2 = 84.
That said, the graph shows that nice and clear narrow and lonely point at 83... :twisted:

Anyway, the number is not 85!

Did you amplify the area from 47 to 60?

Cheers

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:13 am**

Looks like I'm late to the party here, lol. That's a beautiful dial! I'm not familiar with that brand.
Filipe, I CAN'T WAIT to watch this thread grow, learn from your experiences, and help where I can.

I myself have found SO much excitement & enjoyment from manipulation!
It seems we've had a small explosion with interest to it around here as of late.
And it's really nice to see others appreciating the 'puzzle-factor' these locks offer.

It appears there's not too much more to say at this point. The guys have covered it quite well.
Narrowing down a gate center, being aware of direction (especially when hi/low testing), etc.
Mastersmith also brings up a good point... one in which I myself haven't thought about too much.

femurat wrote:Did you amplify the area from 47 to 60?

I too am curious if you have explored it yet.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:59 am**

mastersmith wrote:When dialing your numbers, if you don't reverse direction with each number you move the last number dialed. example: L60-R85-R85, the first 85 will not be at 85 any more. It will be moved when you continue to dial the same direction. Since you have a lock to look into, check it out. The second wheel will not stay parked. As you dial one of these locks you are pushing the wheels, unless you change direction, the gate will not park and will be pushed to a new location.

Hey mastersmith. Actually iy is possible to dial a combination all left or all right. Or R-R-L/L-R-R.
Suppose you want to dial my combo of L75-R85-R85:
3 turns left to 75
2 turns right to 85
1 turn left PAST 85 (87 for example)
1 turn right to 85

This way you guarantee you approached 85 from the right!

Here are my new stuff:
1) My first gate amplification (on the first graph) corrected. I swear I didn't made the results based on my findidngs. I was imparcial!

(click on the images)

2) My new Hi-Lo tests and amplification of 47-60

Libertyclicks wrote:Ok well I'd like you to make sure that the gate IS on w2 with RIGHT 85. I'd be willing to bet the gate is at LEFT 85 on w2, but you found it on a wheels RIGHT graph and therefore it's at 83 instead (direction direction direction).

I checked with the back of the lock opened. W2 RIGHT 85. If it was left, would be 87...

Libertyclicks wrote:Your lock might be the same and you may need to find other ways to test it.

How can I test them then? And more important, how should I know how to test? On my latest hi-lo test (checked and rechecked) it STILL looks like a clean 85@w3. If I didn't know it, I would continue manipulating based on that...

So questions!!

1) By looking at the back of the lock, 85 is the gate center in W2. maybe (just maybe) 84,5. But, from the Hi-Lo tests, I could never get to W2. What other ways can I test it, and how do I know which test I should preform beforehand?
2) I have amplified 47-60. See it on the 2nd image. It appears to be nothing, just a low area. Is that correct?
3) Being a low area, it means that some wheel is shadowing another one right? Gordon said it looked like to be the first wheel shadowing the others, I can't seem to understand how he found out it was the first
4) Being the first, I should park w1 on 53 (for example) and take readings on the others right?
5) what can the area between 10-40 mean (on the very first graph)? I haven't paid attention to it, but I don't understand what that can be?

Sorry for all the question, but this has so much to talk about :mrgreen:

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:01 am**

Oh, and femurat, this was based on your guide, so I used your "graph template".

Eventually I'll develop my own style, but for now, this one suits me well :mrgreen:

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:11 am**

Well your graph around 85 makes more sense now

I'm happy if you use my graph style, no need to change it if it works for you ;-)

I'll try to answer some of your question:
1) ...;
2) yes, it looks a bit too bumpy to be a low area, but it may be just that;
3) yes. To find out which one is shadowing the others, try to move one wheel at a time away from the low area and see what happens;
4) yes;
5) it can be a wheel shadowing the others a lot.

Good luck

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:12 am**

femurat wrote:2) yes, it looks a bit too bumpy to be a low area, but it may be just that;
3) yes. To find out which one is shadowing the others, try to move one wheel at a time away from the low area and see what happens;
...
5) it can be a wheel shadowing the others a lot.

2) It may be a gate lying beneath the shadows! Somewhere between 48 and 55 maybe... I'll need to come back to it after finding the wheel shadowing
3) Going to do that later, when I come from work
...
4) So shadowing may appear both as low and high areas in the graph?

Damn, I haven't even moved on from the first gate on my first manipulation, and I already learnt SO MUCH! :mrgreen:

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