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way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

Posts: 377

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:05 pm

Location: Missouri

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:54 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

One of the reasons I like this site so much is freedom of information, on another site that will remain unnamed, they have requirements that seem overkill, and don't tolerate you asking about it! This site isn't like that, and that's cool!
Now obviously you don't want just anyone viewing stuff that may be "sensitive", and you don't know if people say they are who they really are, but if the bad guys want the info bad enough, they'll get it. Just like guns, criminals will find a way.

The other site, which you all probably know what it is, didn't even want people questioning their actions! The whole locksport and the hacker communities are BUILT on questioning stuff, whether it be the security of a computer or a lock, or a system, and letting others know vulnerabilities exist so they can be aware of it and take action to help mitigate risks. I wholeheartedly support this philosophy.

Then there are people who know I can pick locks and want me to teach them, some I'll show the basics to, and others I say "no way" either because I believe they'll misuse it or they want to learn just to break in to places. If they really want to learn, get a book on it, as I did (or go online!) and teach yourself.
Knowledge IS power, and it can be fun too!

Be safe out there, learn, and HAVE FUN!
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webpirate

Familiar Face

Posts: 116

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:22 am

Location: Winnipeg

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:40 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Thank you all for accepting me and giving me a place to share/brag. Most people don't get as excited as I/we do about doing the seemingly impossible and its nice to be able to share my experience s with people who understand. I have been trying lock picking for about 5months and bought a real 10 piece kit and I just can't get the hang of it. As my wife says "with you the lawn mower in someones shed is safe but the diamond in their vault are not.."...
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:13 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Another thing I was gonna mention (and been meaning to try myself)

If you're looking to challenge yourself, maybe you could create some lockout scenarios?
e.g. A loose spline key, or a stuck fly can certainly throw you for a bit of a loop.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Squelchtone

Active Member

Posts: 351

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Massachusetts USA

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

PhoneMan wrote:One of the reasons I like this site so much is freedom of information, on another site that will remain unnamed, they have requirements that seem overkill, and don't tolerate you asking about it!


I'm only gonna jump in here because I feel that in the last year under my administration, things have gotten much more relaxed than they were back in the day. These days there are posts with people asking how to dial a safe and they are not moved to Advanced unless some knuckle heads adds a reply with exact drill points, etc. It was not like this a year ago, posts would just go *poof* and be moved to Advanced just for mentioning the word "safe". There are still a lot of old rules and things in place that I will be revisiting and updating, but this will take time, and I honestly don't see every topic and area being available to everyone from the moment they join.

As for not being about to ask about it, or why it's so taboo to question the admins and mods decisions, that's just common sense. It's not nice to be rude to your hosts, be it on a forum or when visiting someone's house for dinner. Allowing everyone with a grudge to question every rule on the forum or every decision to move or edit a post only leads to arguments with whiny people who feel entitled to information without having to work for it. I like to keep the place civil without every A-hole with an opinion making the place full of negativity and resentment. I think people value information a lot more when they take the time to learn it and work for it and aren't just handed it or spoon fed it. I know it just kills some people not to have full access, we're not trying to punish anyone, but some people act so spoiled these days. For some information, I just don't buy that old hacker argument of "information needs to be free". I also don't agree with "if a bad guy wants to learn bad enough they'll find the info" well, maybe, but that doesn't mean I should open up Advanced forum to all new users so it makes it super easy for an actual bad guy to read anything they want.

Thanks for listening to it from my point of view,
Squelchtone
the guy who runs that other site
Last edited by Squelchtone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ARF-GEF

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Posts: 451

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Location: Eastern Europe

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:01 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Oh, he meant that forum?
:D :D

things have gotten much more relaxed than they were back in the day.

I can attest that one. It changed a lot even since I'm here.

One other thing I would like to mention:
I think it's good to have a forum which is a lot more open to all and to have a forum which has a much stricter, controlled and closed space. There are and there always will be people who feel more inclined to talk in the closed section. We shouldn't exclude them from this community as long as they are willing to contribute at least in the closed forums.

And although I'm a fighter for openness there are the rare occasion of few subjects of which I too am uncomfortable to detail in public. There are some,albeti very few thing which I accept that they shouldn't be easily accessed by everyone.
Destructive entry is one of those things. And I mean not saying stuff like: that's easy to drill. That is I think fair to say openly.
But I would feel very uncomfortable putting out exact and detailed descriptions on where to drill to the open parts. While on the closed section I feel free to give or ask advice about anything.

So it's good to have both and it's good that these forums are different. There would be no point in having 2 of the exact same forums.
This way everyone can find what he is looking for.
Last edited by ARF-GEF on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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xeo

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Catministrator
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:30 am

Location: East Coast, USA

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:34 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

I feel compelled to state my personal opinion on the matter so here it is.

I don't see a difference between pin tumbler picking information and methodology vs safes/comb locks/manipulation information. There seems to be some kind of nostalgic arcane magic around the concept of safes that hasn't quite worn off yet similar to how old school locksmiths can be very disgruntled when they discover the new generations destroying locks with short hooks and revealing all their secrets. It is a safe. It is not a magical object that is taboo to discuss. The "criminal" argument is inherently flawed completely. The totally determined criminal WILL discover information one way or another. If you think you are making it easier for them by releasing information, you are not. In a scenario where a criminal must use one of these secrets, they must gain illegal access to the safe in the first place long enough to execute said method and they would already be breaking the law without even touching the safe.

My bottom line... a safe is a lock, a pin tumbler is a lock. Both locks protect and secure things. There is no reason to protect or safeguard information for either device.

I am for 100% openness of information regardless of the topic as public awareness is better than secrecy with regards to security exploits. Public awareness increases the popular knowledge base and leads to manufacturers fixing and improving their products. Over time I think this would lead to a much better direction in terms of overall quality of products and what products individuals and establishments choose to implement as their security solution.

Let's face it... how many of us here would put a Kwikset on their front door? I thought so.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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ARF-GEF

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Posts: 451

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Location: Eastern Europe

Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:07 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

What Xeo wrote pretty much is exactly what I think, although maybe a touch more radical than me.
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
Lock-Goblin-Gordon

Posts: 3745

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:05 am

Location: Arizona, United States

Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:33 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Just wanted to add in here that I have been on both sites for a while. ST's site has freed up greatly even in just the last six months. It can be nice having a place where some modecom of decorum and respect is observed. Some things should be a bit more restricted, as even this site recognizes. Destructive entry and bypass can require little skill, but affect lives greatly. Inversely, if a company refuses to improve their product to address known defects and weaknesses, then the public has the right to know the risk in using that product, be it locks, safes or toothpaste.

But the openness of information here also has some benefits as well. Those benefits are not just to us, but to the public as well, when lock companies like Commando Lock Company use our knowledge to help improve their products. For the price, I challenge you to name a product that matches the quality of CLC. And Patrick Smith is working on improving his product all the time.

Quite pleased and honored to be a member of both sites, as both have a lot to offer. Hopefully I can be a benefit to both sites. I also thank Elbow, MBI, Squelchtone, MrPicks, Xeo, and all the others who make these sites available and keep them working.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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AULockpicker

Familiar Face

Posts: 50

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:39 pm

Location: South Australia

Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:54 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

I know this is none of my concern necessarily, but as a...'new member'...I'm gunna chip in my two bobs worth anyway. I'll add to that by saying I am way down in the lockpicking pecking order which is why I don't contribute here, as a hobbyist I have nothing to contribute.

OK, having said all that...Let's be honest here and say I could have joined this, or any other forum for that matter, specifically to pick brains and use that information to assist me in some nefarious activity. All I have to do is satisfy 'someone?' here for me to be accepted in some secret cave for more detailed information. There are many ~ methods of entry ~ {pun intended} and joining *any* forum and feeding that 'someone?' as much BS I needed to in order to become accepted into that secret cave would be as easy as riding a bike for an individual to do. And if it wasn't *this* forum, there are many others out there, and a truck load of information on the Net to boot.

I seriously doubt the criminal element will spend that much time joining a forum when there are plenty of easier ways to go about it. He/she would want that information ~ NOW ~ not piddle about kissing bums for acceptance into a secret squirrel society to get that information. In my mind it's more about that certain 'someone?' satisfying his/her own conscience regarding acceptance of a forum member into that secret cave, a false sense of security basically, or a 'feel good' thing if you like. Anyone who has an interest in picking locks would have two sides to their personality {opinion} and those who join forums by and large do so purely because they have a passion for picking locks for pleasure, the challenge, enjoyment, the satisfaction of defeating some form of security measure, something to interest them in retirement...and that list could go on.

When it all boils down it's a 'trust' thing I guess, I'll never set eyes on any of you, and you won't ever set eyes on me, this is all done in cyberland, and any forum concerning NDE is based totally on trusting its membership, but as I said earlier, I could be someone who walks around in an overcoat wearing a hat and sunglasses and nobody here would have the faintest idea. All I need to do is bide my time feeding whomever it concerns here whatever they wanted to hear and eventually I would have access to that secret cave, and the information contained within. I doubt that 'other' element would spend that much time or put in that much effort, not saying it's not possible, just doubtful, there's no guarantees with anything.

OK, my little 'new member' rant is done, I'll just lurk in the shadows again <g>.
LDU2U on YT and do unto others before they do unto you
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fgarci03

Contributor
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Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:51 pm

Location: Porto/Portugal

Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:19 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

I must throw my flame here aswell :razz:

I think you ALL are right. Information should be free, and will make lock manufacturers look into their flaws.
But some information should, at least, have some layers of security.

I, as a personal opinion, don't think manipulation or high security locks should be restricted. This is a personal opinion, not a full-time belief!
Destructive entry, should, IMO.

And some information, II only feel confident to share because it's restricted (who has access to LP101's Advanced Section knows what I mean.
Anway I just follow the rules, I'm not here to discuss them, if I accept them I participate, if I don't, I go away. And I'm happy to accept the rules of both forums.

But for example. I don't think it's good to freely post how to bypass certain stuff like lockers and so on. As squelchtone says: "There are too many bored teenagers who spend a lot of time on the internet. Many people keep their Ipads on their school lockers and if everyone knows how to crack them... well..." (this isn't a quote, it's a summarization!)
Those locks aren't meant to be high security, thus manufacturers aren't going to change them much even if they are know to be easy to crack. But kids WILL mess with them.

squelchtone wrote:I also don't agree with "if a bad guy wants to learn bad enough they'll find the info" well, maybe, but that doesn't mean I should open up Advanced forum to all new users so it makes it super easy for an actual bad guy to read anything they want.

+1

I know that if someone really wants to enter my house, he eventually will do it. But I won't leave my door opened because of that. If he wants to get in, he'll have to work for it.


With that said, back to the topic.
You can drink untill you're off your count, and manipulate a lock. When that becomes easy (eventually it will. I've seen people COMPLETELY drunk being able to solve math equations!), spin the dial while shaking your head!


P.S. - I'm preditcing someone will prove me wrong in a video anytime :mrgreen:
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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ARF-GEF

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 451

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Location: Eastern Europe

Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:51 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

someone who walks around in an overcoat wearing a hat and sunglasses


And gloves! Don't forget to the black leather gloves. That should make the outfit perfect :D :D :D
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
<<

AL usher69

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 265

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:47 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Squelchtone wrote:
PhoneMan wrote:One of the reasons I like this site so much is freedom of information, on another site that will remain unnamed, they have requirements that seem overkill, and don't tolerate you asking about it!


I'm only gonna jump in here because I feel that in the last year under my administration, things have gotten much more relaxed than they were back in the day. These days there are posts with people asking how to dial a safe and they are not moved to Advanced unless some knuckle heads adds a reply with exact drill points, etc. It was not like this a year ago, posts would just go *poof* and be moved to Advanced just for mentioning the word "safe". There are still a lot of old rules and things in place that I will be revisiting and updating, but this will take time, and I honestly don't see every topic and area being available to everyone from the moment they join.

As for not being about to ask about it, or why it's so taboo to question the admins and mods decisions, that's just common sense. It's not nice to be rude to your hosts, be it on a forum or when visiting someone's house for dinner. Allowing everyone with a grudge to question every rule on the forum or every decision to move or edit a post only leads to arguments with whiny people who feel entitled to information without having to work for it. I like to keep the place civil without every A-hole with an opinion making the place full of negativity and resentment. I think people value information a lot more when they take the time to learn it and work for it and aren't just handed it or spoon fed it. I know it just kills some people not to have full access, we're not trying to punish anyone, but some people act so spoiled these days. For some information, I just don't buy that old hacker argument of "information needs to be free". I also don't agree with "if a bad guy wants to learn bad enough they'll find the info" well, maybe, but that doesn't mean I should open up Advanced forum to all new users so it makes it super easy for an actual bad guy to read anything they want.

Thanks for listening to it from my point of view,
Squelchtone
the guy who runs that other site

I have to jump in here yes the other site I really don't visit cause of all the secrecy which in my opinion is a lot of overkill. growing up in bad cities I knew a lot of scum bags who would steal from any one and they wouldn't learn to pick locks or manipulate safes. they would kick your door in take what ever and wouldn't have time to try to open a safe they would either make the homeowner open it or take the dam safe with them. grant it there has to be some things left to the professionals but how the hell do you learn if no one is willing to help. I really like this site. there are really damn good people here that are willing to help if you ask. I'm not saying the other site isn't a good site it is its just easier to get help here. How can you challenge your self if you never get that chance to learn.
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hammong

Newbie

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Location: Maryland

Post Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:10 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

My turn to throw gasoline on the fire.

I'm a noob here, and although I've been turning safe dials for many years, and picking simple locks just as long. I came here to hone my hobby, to improve and share ideas with others with similar interest.

As a Freemason, I'm accustomed to keeping secrets and not discussing the "art" in public. But, just like Freemasonry, safe manipulation is often discussed openly and anonymously, and there are dozens of articles on Google that reveal the secrets to all.

I went into a local locksmith shop the other day, and directly asked the man behind the counter for a S&G group 2 change key. He looked me square in the eye and asked me if I was a licensed locksmith, and I told him "No, I manipulate as a hobby". He then said he wasn't sure he could sell me the key, as it could be considered a burglary device. I reminded him that without the combination, and without access to the interior of the safe, that changing the combination would be impossible. He agreed with my logic, but asked what technique I was using and showed him pics of the safe (open and locked) that I recently opened. $10 and I was out the door with a key. The old timer at the shop was clearly protective of the topic, as he should be.

That said, I am grateful for the help here, and the place to discuss the topic.
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