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way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

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webpirate

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:57 pm

way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Since I don't have a 4 wheel lock I have had to invent other ways to challenge myself with the locks I do have. So what I have started to do is..
1) I have dropped graph paper altogether
2) I have told my wife(my official combo changer) to set double numbers once in a while (I find doubles hard)
3) I have started doing it while walking to the bus stop and while on the bus. The noise and the movements make it harder.

My time hasn't suffered but my ability to focus and has greatly improve
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dicey

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:30 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

I still do not like it that we are talking about manipulation here. ANYONE can register and read this information. I also do not like it that new people start topics an manipulation.
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xeo

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:44 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

dicey wrote:I still do not like it that we are talking about manipulation here. ANYONE can register and read this information. I also do not like it that new people start topics an manipulation.


The topic of manipulation is not forbidden here.
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The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
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mastersmith

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Dicey,
Manipulation is not a mystery. It takes lots of practice and can be found on line MANY places. Also, when I took the manipulation class several years ago, graph paper was taboo. I did keep a pad to record possible "hits" on. Graphing takes a lot of time. As a correspondence "method" I think it helps to get a feel for what is happening. I'm a big believer in loosing the paper!
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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dicey

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

I know that is is not forbidden here but I just wanted to mention that ANYONE can find this information online and if we discuss it here it might be used by the wrong persons. Furthermore I think new persons should not start with topics like that.
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darkhorse

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:28 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

To be honest dicey....."the wrong" persons could use anything on the forums for good or bad....
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dicey

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Nevermind then.
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webpirate

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Post Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:52 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Manipulation takes dedication and time to learn, time that most people are not willing or able to dedicate. Even if A criminal element did learn and master manipulation they usually dont have 6 minutes to manipulate a safe before the cops show up...
But having said that I do think that giving out the exact method should be somewhat restricted.
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Libertyclicks

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:33 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

When I started learning manipulation I wanted to talk about it when I wasn't doing it. Now I find I really REALLY want to talk to others about manipulation. This forum is where I get to do that.
I'm starting to wonder (again) if I should go back through my posts and see if there are any "secrets" in there about manipulation and remove them. I think I understand diceys point of view, but I don't intend to stop talking about it all together, so I guess we need to be careful what is posted...

Webpirate: I liked your video. Please make a base for your wood mount. I was getting motion sick watching haha.
I find doubles impossible, once I had them and I couldn't crack it. Had to give up and open the lock and I was pretty mad at myself as soon as I saw what I was missing.
I still need my graph paper (I think). I opened one without it but it was an easy combo and partially luck. The thing is almost every manipulation I do I make an error sooner or later, or have a false reading or something. When I don't chart it then I have to start over when I go down the wrong path like that. Without paper the things I find hard are the hi lo tests, remembering my test numbers and rotation conversion. If I don't have it written down in front of me then it takes a long time since I get confused or make mistakes. I know I need more practice and I will start cutting out the paper.
Do you have some tips to get used to not using paper? For now I'm going to try just jotting down the noticeable numbers... so if/when I screw up I can go back to it.

P.S. dicey your intentions are fair and honest. When I found this site I thought the whole thing was one big legal gray zone. Which intrigued me. I find the members here are very easy going friendly people with nothing to hide, but I forget that any old lurker can google these topics and find plain english answers to sensitive questions on this forum.
I'm too new myself to be preaching so I'm gonna keep my head down, but if judgement comes down that these topics need censoring I will comply without question.

-Libertyclicks
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ARF-GEF

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:34 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

if there are any "secrets" in there about manipulation and remove them.


OK rant on:

I think that would be the death of the forum. When everyone was rushing to keep information secret. The whole point of this forum is to share information. No point in being secretive.
Sharing information and discussing lock are the very reason this whole forum is here.

And consider this: just because someone reads a few lines on how to open a 2M safe lock doesn't mean he/she will be able to open one in a good time under the stress of a crime.
I myself have been shown how to open several safe locks a guy even sat there with me helping me to learn on the process but I still can't open them. And manipulating keyed safe lock is even more so... Reading a description on how to raise the levers in a safe lock won't make anyone a pro. It's not something you read about and then do it in 5 minutes.
It requires a lot of patience and dedication and if a person has both of them there would be no way of stopping him from getting into the restricted parts either. It's impossible to truly verify a person's intents even in person and much more so though the internet.
And let's be honest: how many of you did learn something very useful or interesting here? How would have you liked to miss all those infos just because others are unwilling to share meaningful information. All of us would lose with that. (see this smiley: :axeem: ) You have started somewhere, people helped you and now that you amassed knowledge saying: "I'm going to keep this to myself" is well.. I'm not sure I'm supposed to use those words here.

(BUT I'm not saying we should help obviously criminal intents. I do agree that we must have some self-censorship, but I believe it should be limited to cases where bad intents are reasonably suspected. I respect that some people made/make the choice of not giving some infos out to the public and I'm well aware of the need to keep some informations secret. I am not to divulge their secrets, it's always up to them to decide it they want to share their findings. I definitely would not like to encourage anyone to divulge any secrets not their own!
It is very important to respect the secret-Keeper's (the secret's original owner's) right to limit the spread of information. It is always his and only his decision who he shares it and that must be observed.
Betraying that trust would be very noxious for everyone and the whole community. Trust is a very scarce commodity (on which this whole thing is based on) in this area and I think it is vital to be a trust-able, dependable person. But it is equally important to trust others.
All what I aim for is that secret-owners might reconsider what are the truly very dangerous informations and what are just the plain old lockie reflexes and the will to maintain the exclusivity of this "club".)

For your reassurance:
These forums have been here for a long time, another one is just having it's 10th birthday. There was no apocalypse caused by the availability of informations.
Although I know a forum with a closed part, I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to advertise it here :).
But you do have to put in some work before you are admitted in. Still as I mentioned a determined person could get in there too. Those who don't have the determination can read 10 pages of manipulation guide but still won't be successful in doing so.
That means new people are limited in access to information. If you are not a long term member here, just starting now you too will have to wait until you gain access.
See it would hinder all of us. And I believe most of us are not criminals. There might be a few black sheep among us but there is no truly reliable way to find them.

Think about computer security: openness helped everyone by assuring that weakpoint were taken care of.
And it's a lot easier to use a malign code than using a pick and opening a decent security lock.
The most dangerous era was the beginning when people didn't even realise they need an antivirus program.
Then even blatant weaknesses stayed in the program because there was few pressure to remove them.

I'm a fierce opponent of security through obscurity. That only provides a feeling of false security to most people and helps problems and weaknesses stay unnoticed. While the real pro criminals can easily abuse those weaknesses. Consumers loose while criminals and manufacturers gain.

Here where I live discussing locks is still considered something of a taboo. Lockies are very secretive and jealous of each other's knowledge (with very few exemptions). This leads to a very bad air and instead of community, cooperation and comradeship it nurtures a cold-war era like distrust and suspicion. Best practices stay hidden and everyone loses.
The result is that most consumers have no F-ing idea how insecure their locks and practices are. Break-ins soar and crime blossoms. Plus for those money minded lockies: noone is willing to spend on quality security solution because they are not aware of the dangers.
(I regularly get asked to recommend an acid-resistant lock. It is very hard to convince them that acid is not the way robbers use to break in. Such misconceptions are so widespread that even manufacturers advertise their products as being "acid safe!" :D )

You hurt general security a lot more by keeping a weakness secret than making it widely available to everyone and thus forcing the manufacturer to change it. That "natural selection" will pave the way to better locks and better general security.
That is the right thing to do, have no doubt in that.

In the age of internet where criminals have access to all kind of books and can communicate (and educate each other) freely in all over the word thinking that they will become a pro safe cracker because of you post is self-flattery.
And if they are hardcore criminals when they go to jail they actually pretty much subscribe to a pro's course on how to break in if they want to.
Keeping all the infos secret from the general public is one for the most harmful and backwards practice I know of in the industry.

Keeping the infos for yourself has no real positive side, but it is selfishness. I think those who only want to gather the infos but are unwilling to offer a helping hand to others have no place in this forum.

I understand your fear but please consider the things I have written here and I hope you will see that the fear is unreasonable.
I am very concerned about the public safety but that lead me to the exact opposite conclusion. It is one of the main reasons what lead me to being a lot more open about sharing my limited knowledge.
This is ony my opinion of yourse so don't get insulted.

Rant off. :)

(
dicey your intentions are fair and honest.
-> +1 on that and I believe you too are well intended Liberty. (an ironic name for that post :D) )
To infinity... and beyond!
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Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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fgarci03

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:41 am

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Damn, it's not the first time I want to write my thoughts in a post, but, because I'm in a hurry, I let it pass.

When I come back to do it, ARF-GEF wrote something 10x more complete than I would!


+1 to this!
I do agree with LC and dicey, but I think ARF-GEF has a point here.

Many thanks for posting this!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

ARF-GEF,

Well, I don't think I could have ranted it better myself!

I completely agree. It is fine to talk about lp101. Also, we DO have a closed to the public section regarding items that are of a sensitive enough nature. If the discussion got too deep into the manipulation process, then perhaps it would be moved (this is a VERY uncommon occurrence here as we allow the discussion of much more in public than lp101 does, and it's fine that they handle it the way they do as well as that is their forum to run however they want.) Not to mention there are quite a number of lock forums that are totally closed to the public and you have to be able to prove you're in the trade to even get in at all and view ANY posts.

Overviews of manipulation and such are fine to discuss publicly, if it gets to the nitty gritty, then well, it is probably best left to the closed area for the reasons expressed by those with concerns. There are some things (not many mind you) that just are not suitable for public discussion.

As far as the closed off from the public section, it is not difficult to gain access so long as you have proven yourself trustworthy and known on the board. If you are a new member who is not an actual locksmith, you'll have to wait until we get to know you and then you can ask, and we'll tell you straight up if you need to be better known or you can be let in. If you're new and an actual locksmith or in law enforcement and can prove it by scanning in your documentation and emailing it to kpmgmt@keypicking.com along with a request for access, then you will be let in straight away. If you've been around a while and don't have access, ASK (send a PM to me and/or mbi.) If new, to get known quicker, you might want to consider hanging around in the chat and after you've been around a while ASK. There is no formal procedure for gaining access, just the subjective assessment of the site owners and the mods.

One good rule of thumb is if while you are composing a post, you feel that you have to ask yourself if it should be posted publicly, then you may not want to post it publicly but behind the safety of the closed area instead.


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Oldfast

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

webpirate wrote:....I have had to invent other ways to challenge myself with the locks I do have. So what I have started to do is..

1) I have dropped graph paper altogether
I made this transition about four months ago, and the results initially were frustrating. lol
But after I kept at it, some pretty amazing things became of it. Most of my manipulations
now are 'free-spinnin'... but I still do a great deal of graphing as I think there's an enormous
amount that can be learned by looking back to past manipulations.

webpirate wrote:2) I have told my wife(my official combo changer) to set double numbers once in a while (I find doubles hard)
Yup, my girl has stumped me a couple times too, lol. If I remember, one of them was 12-12-44.
I still opened them, but it took MUCH longer. I think it's a good thing to throw those in sometimes.
It's probably not common practice, but it's quite possible to run into a 2-number combo in the wild.
Sometimes a safe-tech or locksmith is asked by the client to set it like that for easier in and outs.

webpirate wrote:3) I have started doing it while walking to the bus stop and while on the bus. The noise and the movements make it harder.
lol... I can just see ya now... bet ya get some odds looks from people sometimes? lol
You're right though, it can certainly be beneficial. And I too like to bring at least a
few of my dials anytime I'm goin' on a road trip (my girlfriend usually drives =)

An interesting note on that actually: One of my early discoveries resulted from a 'traveling manipulation'.
We were on a bumpy road and I found it very difficult to maintain a light touch for my readings. So I used
a heavier touch and found that AS LONG AS I kept that heavy-handed touch CONSISTANT, differences in the
readings would still show up. I continued with this technique after getting home and found I could shave
time off - if I'm taking heavier readings, it also means I can approach my contact points that much faster.

And so it goes..."differential analysis". We're simply looking for noticeable differences that occur throughout
a spread of readings. So as long as my approach contains enough consistency to highlight the changes we're
looking for, I can still effectively locate gates.

With that said, I've encounter a number of locks that do not take kindly to my 'gorilla hand' technique. lol
Some locks require a lighter touch... and trying to use a heavier touch simply dilutes the readings too much.

elbowmacaroni wrote:....Also, we DO have a closed to the public section regarding items that are of a sensitive enough nature.
What section are you referring to? Funny, after all my time here... I guess I never realized there was one. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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xeo

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

Oldfast wrote:What section are you referring to? Funny, after all my time here... I guess I never realized there was one. lol


The Bypass & Destructive Entry forum. You can send a PM to elbow or MBI if you want permission to come aboard!
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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darkhorse

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Post Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:34 pm

Re: way to challenge yourself with Group 2 manipulation

i too never realised there was a closed section.......Glad there is because as has been said there are certain techniques that need some responsibility involved. DE is one aspect that needs explaining only to the select few..on our UK forum we normally post private youtube vids and also have a "locksmith only" section and we do allow trusted members access...it normally becomes very apparent when a dubious member wants certain info by he questions they ask and the type of locks they want to open from the start..that said..complex and time consuming methods are if at all seldom used by the scrote. they just want a quick way in...When sensitive issues are debated its up to each individual and each forum to use there own rules and discretion for the greater good...
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