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Manip. methods

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Libertyclicks

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Post Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:04 am

Manip. methods

I'm trying to learn a bit more, so I'm going through my literature here. Was hoping for some interesting discussion on some topics. Oldfast, femurat, I'm looking at you guys, but I know there are a bunch of other knowledgeable fellas on this forum.

Oscillation:
When dialing test combos, has oscillation (rotating back and forth in the drop in area hitting the contacts) ever helped you drop into a gate that was just a little tiny bit off? It doesn't seem to help on my LaGard when I dial a number really close (1.5 off) and then oscillate. If I put the fence right on the very edge of a gate and then shake the whole lock, well sometimes it will drop in, but I'm not convinced that oscillating works.

Read w3 alone to get a gate, then w1 and w2 around:
On my lock wheel 3 reads first, and the previous S&G I did was the same way. After reading 3 I tried to read 2 alone , but I found I have often been committing a dialing error where I rotate too many times and end up reading w1 and w2 around. On both locks I got legitimate gates running w1 and w2 around after checking w3 alone. Has this happened often for you where w1 and w2 read simultaneously?

Bending the fence:
The only part about manipulation I don't enjoy is going all the way around w1 after getting numbers for w2 and w3 and the lock not opening after all that time spent. I have considered bending the fence on one of my locks so w1 reads first to save me quite a bit of time in my practice, though I appreciate this is not how most locks would read. Has anyone done this? Has it worked for you? I can see if I am not careful this could make it impossible to read the other wheels if there is too much bend, etc.

Thanks,
-LC
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Squelchtone

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Post Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:51 am

Re: Manip. methods

I heard from an experienced locksmith and safe guy in my area that when he took his classes back in the day they had filed the fence into 3 steps, each one lower than the next, perhaps this would be better than bending or maybe it will be exactly the same when graphing.

___
.... ___
......... ___ <- stepped fence
=== === === <- tops of wheels wheels

like that.

Squelchtone
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Libertyclicks

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Post Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:06 pm

Re: Manip. methods

Squelchtone wrote:I heard from an experienced locksmith and safe guy in my area that when he took his classes back in the day they had filed the fence into 3 steps.
Squelchtone

I like that better than bending. I worry if I bent the fence end down so wheel 1 would read first then wheel 2 wouldn't read at all or something. But there is an obvious advantage if you know exactly how the wheels will read, then again this is all a learning process isn't it...
Anyway, thanks Squelch! How's it going?
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femurat

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Post Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:54 am

Re: Manip. methods

Oscillating worked once for me. I got one wheel a couple numbers off and it did the trick. Since it takes just a couple of seconds it should be used when you think you got the right combo but the lock doesn't open. I don't use it while manipulating.

I suggest you not to modify the fence. Learn properly with an unmodified lock. If you're not confident enough, put wheel #1 on its known number and start by manipulating just wheels #2 and #3. If you modify the fence by bending it or by filing it you've ruined a lock.

Cheers :)
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Libertyclicks

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Post Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:12 am

Re: Manip. methods

Thanks Femurat. I'll do that.
LC
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: Manip. methods

Bending or filing the fence for practice purposes: I'm with Femurat on this one.
I was tempted to when first starting... but just couldn't bring myself to ruin a lock. lol
Especially considering I didn't have but one! It'd be different if I had extra levers around.
Kind of a neat idea for a starter lock though... have a cut away with several
interchangable levers that would give you various binding orders. And I like
the idea of filing rather than bending the fence. I hadn't thought of that.


Oscillation: Rarely do I use it prior to readings. But I always use it when running the final wheel.
Granted, the majority of the time when I hit the correct combo, the fence falls right in with no coaxing.
But I'd venture a guess of, oh... maybe a quarter of the time when oscillating will drop the fence when
it would NOT have otherwise. A quick couple of seconds of violent oscillation is well worth the time.

Consider when we're running the final wheel; we're dialing three digits every time. If we're doing
this rather fast (which I'm always pushing the limit, lol), that leaves alot of chance for error.
Oscillation can sometimes help forgive us for our sloppiness by widening that margin of error.
Slight as it may be, I'll take it!

Also, when manipulating mounted locks as we do... we miss out on handles that are connected to
the door boltwork (which we know makes contact with the locks' bolt). I've only had the pleasure
of playing with a couple 'real' safes... but I've found oscillation coupled with jostling the handle
can really work wonders.

Running wheel 3 around first:: Not sure I follow what you're getting at, or asking here...
After finding the gate on w3... are you wondering whether to run just w2, or both 1 & 2 together?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Libertyclicks

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Post Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:24 pm

Re: Manip. methods

Oldfast wrote:After finding the gate on w3... are you wondering whether to run just w2, or both 1 & 2 together?

That's exactly what I mean. I always "intended" to run just w3, then just w2, then just w1. But....what I've actually been doing is accidentally running w1 and w2 around after finding gate on w3. Not cause I wanted to, but because I'm a ham fisted fool.
It seems to still read w2 almost always and sometimes it also reads w1. I guess I'm wondering really if the fence design where we talked about wheel 3 reading first is also apt to have wheel 1 and 2 read equally after that?

I like the idea of just using a lever and grinding it down. Wonder if I can get an arm/fence from somewhere around here...
-LC
Last edited by Libertyclicks on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

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Post Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:09 pm

Re: Manip. methods

So after running 3 alone, and having found a gate on it.... is it better to run 2 alone OR 1&2 together?
That's a good question. One that I'm still wondering myself and I'm not sure if there's a definitive answer.
As I've mentioned, I run through the dials I currently have to work with ALL THE TIME. Again and again.
I like to vary my approach to keep my hand/eye/brain adapting AND to see what works most often.

In regards to 2 alone, or 1&2 together... I've found that EITHER can leave me empty-handed at times.

There's ups & downs to everything. I've had some fantastic results from running a wheel at a time.
It can often times lead to some REALLY QUICK takedowns... I've come to call it the "321 dance", lol.
I've also had plenty of times where w2 wouldn't read, and it can turn into a bit of a game from there.

The downside: Although I've found a gate on w3, I've gathered no intel on the other two wheels in the process.
Same scenario exists if we know 3, and run 2 by itself and find no gate - we're left knowing nothing about w1.
So my decision as to what course of action I will take next is really not based on anything sound... other than
the idea that most locks will read in a 321 order... and the hope that this happens to be one of those locks.

Running multiple wheels whenever possible: I'm not all too bright when it comes to mathmatical shit.
But if we were to look at this in terms of statistics, percentages, odds, etc..... I'd be inclined to believe
that running wheels together is the more logical choice. You'd not only be more apt to hit a gate(s), but
you'd also be more apt to hit a gate sooner. And unlike running only one wheel, if we DO NOT find a gate,
we're at least left with some data to help us decide what to change and where to go from there.

Maybe with more time & experience I'll discover more, but for now I like both methods and try to incorperate
them into my game. Bottom line though is: I usually approach a lock with a particular plan in mind...
but most of the time I find the lock has a much different plan than I do once I start spinnin'. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."

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