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LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

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Libertyclicks

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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:24 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Day 2 at the Demolition Yard

It was a humbling day. Nothing opened and I even felt like I might be backpedaling on the Taylor safe I'm working. It was a little colder than the previous day.
The one glimmer of joy in my day was when it started snowing while I worked on the Taylor safe...

Ahhhhh.... that sound kept me going. Even when I wanted to give up for the day I thought.... well just one more graph and struggled through it. Now in hindsight I probably should have just quit, since the last graph I did informed me that wheel 2 was an octagon.
More pictures will be up soon for any interested parties, then later graphs for anyone to have a laugh at my attempts to get anywhere with these safes.
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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:51 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

The Taylor Sisters

The Taylor sisters.jpg

I didn't take nearly enough photos last time so here are some more of the Taylor Safes.
The black one actually sold today while I was working on the other one. The guy implied he was going to call a locksmith to open it and put on a new lock. It made me very sad. I gave him my contact info and explained if they drill it then it's not rated and it's not antique anymore. I hope I hear from him but if not then that poor thing will get shown a drill.
black taylor front.jpg
black taylor hinges.jpg

black taylor side.jpg
back of taylors.jpg

brown taylor side.jpg
Brown Taylor Dial.jpg

I was feeling pretty playful at the beginning of the day so I snuck in an upskirt shot for your viewing pleasure...
taylor upskirt.jpg
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Libertyclicks

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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:05 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Floor Safe with S&G

floor safe 5.jpg

floor safe 6.jpg

floor safe 1.jpg

floor safe 2.jpg

This floor safe was discovered at the end of my first day on the job. The lock wouldn't budge and neither would the plug in the top. After using some special lubricant (50/50 diesel and transmission fluid) the plug came out. I worried about what this could have done to the lock which still wouldn't budge. I told the client I'd need to take it home and service it to get it working again. He whined about the cost so I bluffed him and said well you can just keep it broken... then he sighed and agreed. Phew, I didn't want to leave this poor lock like this!
floor safe 3.jpg

It doesn't look too bad from the picture, but all parts had slime on them and when I took it apart the spindle hole was full of gunk and the wheels had sludge in between. I used almost a whole bottle of degreaser on it, it still doesn't look that mint but it works very well now.

Looking only in the back of the lock I dialed in the combo and opened it to make sure it worked the way it should. I avoided getting the combo because I want to manipulate it, hoping to boost my confidence.
-LC
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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:35 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

ATM Unit with Safe Lock

There is an old ATM in the yard with an intact safe lock. The locks I've seen on ATM's currently are Kaba Mas (LaGard) equipment, I haven't looked into this one yet. Has the crowfoot dial index like S&G but I don't think S&G did atm contracts...
atm 2.jpg

atm 1.jpg

So the safe area is for customer deposits only, the cash you get from a withdrawal is from the CDU (cash dispensing unit) on top of the ATM, or at least so my bank contacts tell me. The CDU would hold several thousand dollars at a time for overnight and dish that out for withdrawals, but the amount of cash varies as some banks have very secure access to the rear of the atms so they hold more.
atm 4.jpg

The lock itself is functional , I think in the pic it's resting on contact. The handle is not attached to anything, I believe this door has been forced or attempted to be forced in the past. The hinges on the door have been cut and pulled out. So even if I was to open this lock I don't think I could get it off the door anyway, we'll probably end up cutting this one or writing it off. The client says I can have this lock if I get it off without damaging the atm which he wants to rent out for film shoots. -LC
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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:45 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

A couple of things. Why would the Taylor "no longer be antique" if it were drilled? I agree it would be a shame to drill it, but a competent safesmith could drill , read, open and repair it with little evidence. Some safes just don't want to be manipulated. As much as you would like to play with it, usually the owner wants the unit in service. They could care less about the historical value of a safe. Second, the last unit displayed has a LaGard dial. I don't know if that is of help to you or not. Continue to enjoy this journey you started, this is a rare opportunity for you. Mark
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

mastersmith wrote:A couple of things. Why would the Taylor "no longer be antique" if it were drilled? I agree it would be a shame to drill it, but a competent safesmith could drill , read, open and repair it with little evidence. Some safes just don't want to be manipulated.

Thanks for your comments Mastersmith. Good to hear from you. I'm of the mind the safe is much more valuable if it is original and untouched, I just didn't think they could drill it without it being noticeable later. Then again I am biased and I just want to play with it myself.
I hope I'm not dealing with one of those safes that can't be manipulated , I really want to get it open not just for the client but myself as well.
mastersmith wrote: As much as you would like to play with it, usually the owner wants the unit in service. They could care less about the historical value of a safe.

Too true, too true. I have a sneaking suspicion I will never hear from this guy, but it's his unit so he can do whatever he wants.
mastersmith wrote: Second, the last unit displayed has a LaGard dial. I don't know if that is of help to you or not. Continue to enjoy this journey you started, this is a rare opportunity for you. Mark

I figured it was LaGard. I'll keep working away and if I get something open in the process then great, if not well it's a learning process and I hope I take something away from it.
I have that floor safe plug at home to work on right now, I'll see if I can manipulate it before Monday, if not then I'll pop the back off and see how close I was before returning it to the client.
Thanks again for your interest and input. I'd really love to find safe guys in my area to sit down with and have a chat. I know there are lots of knowledgeable guys around here, I just need a way to approach them so they know I'm not full of crap and I just want to talk and learn. -LC
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Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:55 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Chubb Safe

Image

This safe was stamped "Chubb" and had a 3 number combination. It's about 2.5' by 2.5' by 2.5'. I would guess it weighs just under a ton. The door is unlocked by rotary boltwork when the handle is rotated right about 45 degrees. Opening the first safe door allows access to a small shelved compartment and the inner safe which is key locked.
The client had the combo for this but couldn't get into the inner safe.
Image
The inner safe with keys in position.
Image
Both keys go into the key hole simultaneously to unlock the keylock, then the handle to open it. But the inner door still would not open.
Image
I wanted to investigate what kind of lock was on this safe, but when I peeked in the back I didn't see anything that I was expecting so I put it back together for now. I will investigate more later.
Image
Link for all the pics I have from this safe...
http://imgur.com/KxRnnW1
-LC
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Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Wow man, those are some really sweet safes you get to play with :D That Chubb is really awesome.
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Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:26 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Floor Safe with S&G 6700

Edit: let me know if these images are too big or too small the formatting is out of control on my pc.

Image

Not to be defeated and discouraged by my lack of success with a couple safes at the clients location, I figured I better have a legitimate try at cracking this floor safe which I had the pleasure of bringing home and cleaning up. Here are the after shots, about an hour and a half with a toothbrush and degreaser after getting it home.
Image

Image

Ahhhh...so satisfying to clean up the locks. I wonder how long this poor girl was neglected and lonely. At least she is back to herself now.
Nice clean spinning dial. Unfortunately still had some sticky points around contact that I couldn't get rid of, but nothing that would stop operation ( or manipulation [devil horns] ).
So I tried the methods mentioned in the OldFast Testament and originally brought up by Mark Bates (who I did some reading on).
Again, I'm not going into depth here, but Wheel 3 usually reads first is the idea.
So I graph wheel 3.
Image

So I start at 0 on wheel 3 and start rolling up. I hit a variety of low spots here, but nothing with a distinct gate signature except 40 and 60. I amplify both those areas and find that one is legit and one was just a sticky spot. Also I have gone back to graphing both contacts since I've had less than stellar effects when I was cutting corners on the Taylor safe I have been working. But that's a different story. The scratched out areas are when I went back to amplify and found my error.
Ok, so I have a number. Since I'm only turning w3 then I know that number is on w3. Also look at the graph. I can tell this wheel is oval from the graph and another wheel is intersecting at 15 and 70. This doesn't help me right now, but say I didn't find a number, I can rotate w1 and w2 to a different angle and re read wheel 3 to find something, since in that case the oval parts of other wheels could be blocking wheel 3 low spots.
Anyway, I really find hi lo testing to be hit and miss, so wheel isolation is the way to go for me for now.
Image

All right, so this graph takes the longest time with this manipulation strategy since there is two number dialing every time I check. So, I dial 2.5 numbers at a time and see where to amplify using this method. I could save time on this method by checking at a higher interval , but it's a gamble.
I started at 40 , and I immediately found a low between 20-30, which I amped and was pleased to see a defined area around 23.5. i decided to go with it and moved on to wheel 1.
First I check 10 20 30 etc. on wheel 1, then 15 25 35 etc. and the lock REALLY wanted to open in the 50-80 range. Soooo.... I go back and check every 2 incs on wheel 1 between 50 and 80, dialing my other 2 known numbers. And it never opened.
Ok fair enough, 23.5 is not number 1. I return to the graph of w2 and keep going around, and I get some strange readings then BAM the old S&G grand canyon strikes again. Amplify it and see that it in fact is deeper than what was at 23.5. So what was at 23.5? To be honest at the time I had no idea and didn't think about it too much. I'm starting to get faster at dialing so I was just plowing ahead with what I had to go on.
All right, let's test the new low area on 2 with w1 around. Again, from what I see about the numbers in this combo so far I bet a superset will work. I check the tens, no dice, but it was really sticky around on the first half of the dial. so I try 15 then 25.
OPEN: 25 - 76 - 40
Super, I can actually do this. I was getting discouraged after having my ass kicked all over the scrapyard by that Taylor.

So, what do I like about this method?
1) I like wheel isolation, since I despise Hi Lo tests and their suspicious nature, even though I appreciate now what I was probably doing wrong with them (fly widths / rotation conversion).
2) I liked this method on this PARTICULAR lock because it let me see the shape of the wheels and how they might trick me in the future.
3) When I think I have 2 numbers and I go around the last wheel and the nose starts to drag.... well let's just say it's exciting for me.

What do I NOT like about this method?
1) The graphing of wheel 2 can take a long time, and for this lock if the wheel position had posed a problem I could have spent a half hour on this graph with no appreciable results.
2) If I investigate lows as they come on graphing wheel 2, then I can blow an extra 20 minutes spinning wheel 1 around inconclusively based on a false number. (Just like it happened in this case)

I have to say, other than my FIRST manipulation opening, this one taught me more than any other opening. This is because my understanding of the wheel pack is better, I'm getting faster at dialing test combos efficiently, and my last practice on the American with S&G taught me a LOT about graphing wheel 2. In particular I learned how to graph wheel 2 efficiently, and also how easy it is to return to a low spot for amplifying as you go.

Ok, how could I have found this combo more efficiently:
Well, those spots where I tried the incorrect number order that made the nose "drag" really strongly on the lock and it felt like it was going to open, that should be an obvious hint to me that the numbers are right but the order is wrong. Now, that being said I wasn't taking any readings on w1 when I was checking it, so I didn't actually narrow down a number that I could have used, but when I went back to w2 to continue checking it I could have gone right to 25 (22.5 corrected for fly width) and opened it up with one combo. Looking at that graph it's pretty obvious where the gates are.
I could have: Graphed wheel 2 entirely before continuing.
I could have: Graphed wheel 1 and wheel 2 together. In this example I got lucky that wheel 1 was taller than wheel 2 in wheel 1's gate area. Otherwise I wouldn't have seen that gate, which actually would have saved time.......

More charts to come regarding other safes I'm working.
All input is welcome as always, and thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.
Special thanks to OldFast for his fine work and golden nuggets of info that keep turning light bulbs on for me.

LibertyClicks
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Oldfast

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Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:25 am

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

:spinning: BAM!! wehoooOOOO! I haven't much to add on this one... just really enjoyed it!

A note on rotational conversion...(you may very well have already figured this out, but it may help others)

You'll find the differences will vary not only with each lock... but with each wheel within a lock.
Wheel 3 will have the least varience, while w1 (more flys involved) will have the largest varience.

To figure this out for a particular lock, park all wheels at say... R50.
Then, pick up a wheel at a time, noting the difference for each one.

For example, you may find that...
w3 picks up @ 50 5/8 ....... difference of 5/8
w2 picks up @ 51 ............ difference of 1
w1 picks up @ 51 5/8 ....... difference of 1 5/8

Using these differences, you can now position a wheel in the same place regardless of what direction you approach it.
Also, rather than trying to add or subract the difference in order to figure out what I need to dial to... I put it into
simpler terms (because I hate math lol). I just say to myself that I must dial BEYOND by such & such amount.

e.g. My gate center for w1 is L49. I know the difference for w1 is 1 5/8, so...
in order to dial it going right, I simply go PASSED 49 by that difference (1 5/8).
This puts me at 47 3/8. Dialing L49 or R47 3/8 will place w1 in the same spot.
Regardless of what wheel/direction I'm changing... I dial beyond by the appropiate difference.

Hope this helps someone. I had to figure this out on my own, and personally,
I had a rather difficult time grasping this concept. It took me a minute. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:36 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Oldfast wrote:A note on rotational conversion...
w3 picks up @ 50 5/8 ....... difference of 5/8
w2 picks up @ 51 ............ difference of 1
w1 picks up @ 51 5/8 ....... difference of 1 5/8

This is really important info, and when I started I 1) got lucky and 2) graphed in such a way as to avoid rotational conversion issues.
That works until you need to make a graph of something that doesn't fit your picture perfect manipulation model, then everything starts going downhill.
Wanted to ask about that brown Taylor safe, the flys seem to be fixed, not moveable, and about 6.5 numbers wide. So rotation conversion on them would be awful. The second wheel could be upwards of 12 increments depending on how I graphed. I could have had a right combo all along but hadn't converted for rotation at all. Does this make sense / have you heard of this? Thanks!
K I want to hash out some graphs here but I'm exhausted. I might post them anyway, then dream about it, and then add my comments tomorrow.
-LC
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Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:59 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

American with S&G

Image

So just a refresher from my charts last day...
I thought I had 37 ??? 44 for the combo so far. I continued to chart and graph here...
Image
I had tried a WHOLE bunch of combos that were just frankensteined from low points on my various charts, probably about 60 combos, and none worked. I listed some of them on a sheet to go back to later. So I went back to confirm I had numbers on the right wheels, in which case it would just take a little spinning to sort this thing out on the last wheel. After trying to fix my hi lo tests I got some weird readings from 38. The contact points would disappear and reappear or change position, and they would read fine the rest of the time. Looking at it now I'm pretty sure 38 isn't a number and I was drunk the whole time. But 44 seems solid, and I got it bases on 38... which is odd, but anyway, what I did on this graph above was check wheel 1 by putting 2 and 3 in the gate and I figured "If 38 is on wheel 1, then I'll see a grand canyon as I pass 38" yeah well there was no canyon and I got worried.
I tried a little something different and put w1 and w3 on the gate and tried to read wheel 2, which was... hit and miss, I was expecting to see a canyon at 38 again, but none came. I saw some other readings though. I need to go back and graph wheel 2 with wheel 3 on 44.
Image
This graph I was trying to zero in on wheel 2, but part way through I think I screwed up my parking by over rotating a wheel, I intended to go back and fix it, but the client arrived and intervened with a distraction.

So, the only number I am confident on right now is 44, and even that not too confident. I feel like I should just burn these charts and start over. We'll see, need sleep and then analyze.
-LC
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Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:29 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Brown Taylor

Image

The Brown Taylor has thrown me a bunch of readings here and there. I can try all the possible combinations and see if it will drop in place with the bunch of numbers I have, or I can try to narrow it down. I think I'll graph w3 alone next day see if any consistent numbers pop.
Image
all wheels left, rechecked to smooth out weird spots from day 1. Did proper hi lo test, found RCP today which was non existant last day.
Image
got a suspicious 73 , 86 and 96 on this graph... Did some inconclusive hi lo's (for an unknown reason)
86 and 93 gave the lowest readings, so that's probably a gate, but I am bearing in mind that the fixed fly width is 6.5, so these could be opposite sides of a fly or something. I just can't picture whats up inside this lock right now.
Image
More amping, more tests, thought I had it sorted and tried w1 all around with no joy.
Image
The day was almost over so I decided to try this chart .... Didn't give anything too informative. Again, I feel like I should just throw these charts out and start fresh . Ah well, when it opens I am going to really laugh at myself for not seeing it in these graphs. Must sleep now.
-LC
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Oldfast

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Post Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:13 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Libertyclicks wrote:Wanted to ask about that brown Taylor safe, the flys seem to be fixed, not moveable, and about 6.5 numbers wide. So rotation conversion on them would be awful. The second wheel could be upwards of 12 increments depending on how I graphed. I could have had a right combo all along but hadn't converted for rotation at all. Does this make sense / have you heard of this? Thanks!


Forgot you had asked about this. I've manipulated only one safe with fixed drive pins. This one.
But yeah, I found they do create a surprising amount of varience in comparison to moveable flys.

In conclusion I had wrote:Being my first experience with fixed drive pins, I was curious as to just how much variation they would
incur when dialing to a gate from two different directions. The differences were surprisingly large.
For example... a combination dialed from both directions:
-with a LEFT RIGHT LEFT rotation..... 49 28 97
-with a RIGHT LEFT RIGHT rotation... 64 38 02
The incremental differences in this case turn out to be 15, 10, and 5 respectively.

The only one I've not experienced are the screw change type. You can place the screw in any number
of holes placed around the wheel in order to change the combo. The screws' head serves as a drive pin.
I would imagine this type would create for the largest rotational variation of all. But I dunno.
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Post Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:59 pm

Re: LC on manipulation tour: Demolition Yard (pics)

Other Mysterious Strong Box

Image
The crew at the scrap yard told me there was another old safe buried somewhere over there (gesturing towards the tree line). I went for a hike and found these two lock boxes. One was rusted to heck and was stamped "Sentry" .... Garbage.
Image
This one looked pretty sharp. Tried the handle and it was locked. No issue, produce my sparrows picks. Not taking any crap because of the sour mood I was in today I went to the rake and boom open.
Image
And try the handle.... it won't open.... Try moving the cylinder in different positions... try forcing it further clockwise.... nothing.
Okkk..... well it doesn't make sense but maybe I have to pick it the other direction...
Image
Ha stupid box you won't get me that easy. And give the door a tug... it's still locked. You stupid thing! turn the cylinder all the way around and pick it again, still won't open.
:Rage: :bird:
The other side had a rusty door as well with a lock on it but no handle. I tried to pick it for a while with no success then gave up.
Image
Ah well... This box clearly holds nothing of value since it is stamped...
Image
Anyway, there it is for your info. -LC
Last edited by Libertyclicks on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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