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Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

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Cooper

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:12 am

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Riyame wrote:Holy giant pictures batman!! :lol:

I changed your images to links for easier viewing since they were mostly cut off due to size.

oops! Sorry about that. It looked okay on my end but I think my computer was auto adjusting. I'll stick with links from here on :D
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Squelchtone

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:01 am

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Cooper wrote:Okay I got the photos of the safe....Here she is!

http://cooperostresh.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/img_9747_mini.jpg

http://cooperostresh.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/img_9750_mini.jpg

And in other news...It IS a direct Drive! I had just put tension on one of the handles when I checked it before. When I went in to take the picture I put tension on both handles simultaneously and I felt tension, and clunks, when I turned the dial. I was literally there for only 5 minutes so I didn't get a chance to do much more with it but at least I know what I am dealing with now! Thanks for those pics. That is what gave me the thought to double check!


Hi Cooper,

To get a better reading, attach a horizontal metal bar to the right handle using some clamps or something on the two ==O== equal signs of the right handle, make sure it is a little longer than the original handle. Now, attach a vertical rod 12 inches tall to that horizontal bar, and tape a piece of paper to the safe where that vertical rod/pointer ends. Here you can graph more subtle changes in the turning of the handle as you apply pressure to the longer bar you attached to the handle, those changes will be amplified via that long vertical bar, and you can start marking notches on the paper and making notes.

I credit this idea, which is new to me, but I'm sure common technique to most safe guys, to what I saw at the very beginning of this clip: http://www.therealdealdvd.com/

Hope that helps,
Squelchtone
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Squelch, that looks like a kickass vid! lol

That technique interests me. I've played with it a little (to no avail - but that was do to my inexperience).
I just wanted to add... If you do try this, consistancy is key. You must apply the same amount of pressure
to the handle for each reading. This could be done with a set up (weight, bunjee, etc.), or a refined touch.

In the vid it appeared they were doing it by touch, I think? The bunjee cord they had attached was for
pulling the handle (and boltwork) AWAY from the wheel pack until they were ready to take a reading.
When the wheels were positioned and they were ready to take a reading, they pushed the handle up.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Cooper

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:55 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Thanks Squelch. That was actually the method I was thinking of applying. The brief seconds of it on that video gave me some great feedback on how I should arrange the rig. I even notices that it was a Hall's safe in the video so that gives me even more confidence that I might be on the right track. That doesn't mean it will be easy but at least having a method to my madness gives me hope!

Thanks for those comments as well Oldfast. Knowing what you experienced gets me prepared for some of the challenges. As I proceed I will start keeping notes and taking pictures so my success or failure might help others on this forum. I'll put a secret page on my website and post a link here so others around here can watch my progress.

One question I have for Ringo: Did you take those pictures yourself? I ask because(granted I only had a few moments to rotate the dial with tension) but it felt "choppy" when I did. It was similar to how a Master Lock Padlock feels when you put a lot of tension on. In a master lock the very first wheel is sprocket like and acts as a cheap anti-manipulation feature. In your photo titled HALL's WHEEL VAULT LOCK there is a disk sitting atop the wheel pack. I cant tell from the resolution of the photo but it looks like it might have a similar shape? So I was just wondering if you could confirm this?

Thanks all...I will start work on that page and the lock and get back to you guys when I have something to report.

Cheers
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10ringo10

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:27 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Double door thanks for the pics cooper,it direct inline then if its binding the wheels the disc as you say sat on top of the wheels will not be a problem buddy.
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Cooper

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Here is that page I mentioned. As of yet it isn't searchable on my website and will just be view-able from this link. If you have followed this thread there is very little new information on it that you don't already know except that I have added some interesting historical photos at the bottom of the page. I'd love to have you guys scroll down to the bottom, take a look and tell me what you think!

http://the-boxman.com/unpublished-page/
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Cooper

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

10ringo10 wrote:Double door thanks for the pics cooper,it direct inline then if its binding the wheels the disc as you say sat on top of the wheels will not be a problem buddy.

Thanks for the info...at least I won't have to worry about that.
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10ringo10

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:55 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

just read it looks good so far but its worth mentioning a paragraph or two about the change in the wheels design from old to new...notches cut in and so forth...how it was re patented and introduced and the fact modern day safes will lock up on contact and use a key to throw the bolt.
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Cooper

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:18 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

10ringo10 wrote:just read it looks good so far but its worth mentioning a paragraph or two about the change in the wheels design from old to new...notches cut in and so forth...how it was re patented and introduced and the fact modern day safes will lock up on contact and use a key to throw the bolt.

Will do! It is a work in progress and I may actually build a separate page to hit some of the really technical details and use this one for a general overview. I will be writing it to appeal to some of the fans of the book who are not super hard core into the details but have some interest in the subject in general.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:11 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

GET IT Cooper!! lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Cooper

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Post Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:58 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

So here is the low down on my first attempt...


Methods For cracking a Direct Drive lock:

The basic method for cracking a direct drive combination lock is by measuring the difference in depth the handle moves along each number on the dial. A direct drive lock works on a pretty simple principle. The dial is attached to a spindle which turns a series of disks(called Fly Wheels) inside the lock. On each fly wheel there is a gap cut out which corresponds with its combination number. When all of the gaps on all of the fly wheels line up the bolt that the handle operates is free to recede into the gaps and thus open the safe.

Because no machined product is perfect each fly wheel is slightly different in size. By carefully measuring how far the handle of the safe turns at each number on the dial you can theoretically determine the location of each gap in a wheel. This is generally done by attaching a wire to the handle and taping a ruler to the safe where the far end of the wire reaches. This amplifies the movement in the handle allowing you to accurately measure how far the handle moves. You can then graph the results at each number along the dial. The points where the handle moves the most likely correspond with the combination on the dial.

Photo of my rig:
Image
A needle attached to the handle is used to show amplified movement when tension is applied. The ruler is used to measure the amplified movement. The magnifying glass is used mostly so I can ensure that my head is in roughly the same spot for each reading I take. I line the green tape up on each side of the viewing glass, To the left is the chart.
My first attempt:

My first attempt was unsuccessful but left me with some tantalizing clues. I began by turning All Wheels Left(AWL) and charting the handle movement. I got the most movement in the handle at position 24 and position 91. I then went through a process to see if I could determine which wheel each number corresponded to. To do this I dialed up each number twice and an off number(in my case 50) on one of the three positions. So, for example, I would dial 91,91, and 50/ 91,50, and 91/50,91, and 91. I measured the needle result at each location. Where the random number lies,(the 50) is the indicator number. In theory you should see the needle move less in one of the three combinations. In my case the needle moved the leased when the 50 was in the second position. That indicates that the 91 is likely the second wheel. If followed the same process and the 24 indicated the least movement on the third wheel.

Photo of my first chart:
Image
A close-up of the first chart that shows my progress and my work.
So now I charted another graph. This time I dialed up the numbers in 2.5 incriments followed by the 91 and the 24. I was hoping that if I 91 and 24 were indeed numbers on the dial, and if I put them in the right spots, that getting them out of the way by parking corresponding wheels on them would help me find the final number. Sadly the chart I drew was practically a straight line. There was a very minor indication at the number 55 so I tried 91, 24, and 55 in all possible iterations but nothing.

I was disappointed but anyone who has been in one of those "just around the corner" situations knows why I pushed on. It seemed so close! I then just started fiddling with the dial. I notices that with tension on the dial it moved similar to how a Masterlock combination lock moves when you tug on the shackle. A Masterlock does this because it has a very primitive "anti-manipulation" device built in. The first fly wheel is shaped like a cog. This means that it gives a series of "false" indicators as you attempt to manipulate it. If the lock I am dealing with has a something like this then it means that the entire first graph may need to be thrown out. The 91 and the 24 may just be reading low points on this cog shaped wheel as oppose to reading gaps of the fence gates in the other wheels. What I would then need to do, in order to get more accurate readings, is start a new graph by continually parking the dial at the low point in the coged wheel. Sadly by this point I just had to walk away. One thing I learned from this first attempt is that safe manipulation is one of the most mentally exhausting challenges of my life! I'll be back next week to have another go. In the mean time I'll just reflect on what I have learned so far and plan the next attempt!
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femurat

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Post Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:58 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Great Job Cooper. Stick with your numbers. Even if you've found just false gates, keeping the wheels at those false gates should allow you to find other gates, true or false ones.
I'd check again the tryout combos (50,91,91 ecc) to be sure which wheel the gate are on, and then start your last graph again. You should find a gate on that wheel...

Good luck :-)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:03 am

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Looks like a great set-up Cooper. Exciting stuff! Keep at it.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Cooper

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Post Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:59 am

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Thanks guys, I'll probably get my next opportunity next Sunday. I'll let you guys know how that goes.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:53 pm

Re: Hall's Safe & Lock Co. 1893 or older...

Cooper wrote:....with tension on the dial it moved similar to how a Masterlock combination lock moves when you tug on the shackle. A Masterlock does this because it has a very primitive "anti-manipulation" device built in. The first fly wheel is shaped like a cog. This means that it gives a series of "false" indicators as you attempt to manipulate it....

Dunno if this would help or not, but: With my Sentry safe I've noticed I'm able to differenciate true from false on that wheel.
Each time the boltwork drops into one of these gates, I leave the tension on, then move the wheel back and forth. You can
actually feel the boltwork drag/scrape across the bottom of the shallow gate if it false. When I come across the true gate,
there is no drag because the gate is deeper... it's the true gate.

If this would even work on a safe like this, I dunno... maybe worth a try.
You may have to isolate the wheel, or even park the other ones in low areas.

Really enjoying following your journey. Keep it up!

Also, I think you've done a great job with your testing to tryn' determine which wheels your possible gates are on.
If your results are not definitive enough though, you can always couple it with a second test. Choose a high test
number and run it... then choose a low test number and run it. (10 higher & 10 lower than the indication maybe).
If the test results coincide with each other, you can be that much more certain as you proceed.

Another thing you could try is to isolate a particular wheel and see if your indication still appears when running it.
In other words, if you think 91 is on w2... then run only w2, keeping wheels 1 & 3 parked in the same position
each time you take a reading on w2. If the indication still occurs, you can be certain it's on w2 since it's the
only one you're moving. Keep in mind though, this is not an absolute method. There's always a chance that
one or more wheels are in a high area, not allowing a gate on another to be read.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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