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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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Libertyclicks

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Post Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:Libertyclicks - thank you for taking your time to brain-storm with me a bit. And, for sharing your computer generated illustrations.
Your pictures certainly helped to get my mind turning once again... as well as the wheels in this LaGard. Much appreciated friend.

The pleasure is mine Oldfast. Your thread here got me interested in manipulation and your help has been instrumental in me getting this far. In the scheme of things I'm still crawling where as you are up and running! :)
In hindsight I wish I hadn't gotten a LaGard to start now! Hahaha.
Anyway - Now we have a game plan to attack these. Hi low testing for weird shaped wheels. Excellent.

I just wanted to chime in my two cents on your manipulation of the 3330.
Looking at your AWL graph there are a few dips on there 14, 16, 67. I see those all the time on my lock and they never pan out, I need something at least 1/4 increment lower than "normal" to indicate a gate to me. There in lies the problems with this lock I guess, since the wheel shape and size varies so much, and now we can't trust good indications when we see them.

I have had the best luck and fastest time just free spinning my lagard, but the thing with free spinning is you only compare the contact points you find with the last few numbers you tested. So, in your case here, the dive the readings take right after the mountain at 90 would FULLY lead me to believe I was zeroing in a number which is of course wrong. What's worse is if I found that number on wheel 3 then everything else I do from that point will be wrong, I'd blow hours free spinning and graphing to zero in on another number and in the end I'd never open it and have to start over. Ah the joy!

Well I've been working manipulation #5 on my LaGard but it never opened and now I'm restarting, but I hope to have some fresh LaGard photos to compare notes with you soon.

Nice work, keep at it!
LibertyClicks
Last edited by Libertyclicks on Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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femurat

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Post Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:31 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I find your idea about the high areas interesting, but you're over thinking here...

In your first lagard graph you had a low area between 17 and 27. Find the wheel that has the gate there. Put it at the gate centre, 22, and go on graphing. This is the easiest explanation about wheel parking I can give you.

Cheers :)
Pictures in my posts are gone due to a policy change by my hosting provider that caught me unprepared. I'll work on that. In the meantime left click the image and open it in new tab, you should be able to see the picture, with a selection of unrelated advertising and banners all around it.
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GWiens2001

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Post Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Mike,

Man, you are doing great! By consulting with others here, you have come up with a logical process for dealing with oval wheels. It may mor may not prove successful in most instances, but it is so clear that your spinning is coming along quite well.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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Post Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks so much Gordon. As with any lock related endeavor I take on... there's no tellin' where'd I'd be
without this forum and all you guys. The learning curve would certainly be slower, that's for sure. With
ALL the world-wide web has to offer today... hands down, this is THE best place to be :) haha

It's about time for me to start hunting for new game. Unfortunately, I've found purchasing dials on ebay can sometimes
be a game of russian roulette. Some people JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO PACK. Which is a shame - there's one guy I found
that has some KILLER deals... and I mean killer... but he can't pack for shit! He might wrap the locks but he then puts them
in a medium size box with NO filler, leaving TONS of 'tumble room'. Arrrgh! His deals are so good though that I'm tempted to
just pull the trigger and hope for the best. lol. Personally, when I get done packing a box with my bubble wrap, you couldn't
fit a fuckin' mouse turd in there if you wanted! LOL. But not everyone feels so bubbly I guess.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

FemuraaAAAAaaat!!! :D Glad you took a look at this latest maniplutation.
Was REALLY hopin' you would, as I've been grasping for some answers here.
femurat wrote:I find your idea about the high areas interesting....
I agree. I certainly think I'm on to somthin' with this. Those couple tests may look like alot of work... but as you know,
once you get apt with dialing, we're only talkin' a matter of seconds... and alot of insight is gained from it. It may
not necessarily be the answer to my problem... but it's something I'll continue to implement and explore further.

femurat wrote:....but you're over thinking here....
I tend to do that alot haha! And again, I must agree with you. I'm actually glad you confirmed this because...
from the very start I had the feeling that I was probably complicating the shit out of a fairly simple matter. lol

femurat wrote:In your first lagard graph you had a low area between 17 and 27. Find the wheel that has the gate there.
Put it at the gate centre, 22, and go on graphing
. This is the easiest explanation about wheel parking I can give you.
I suppose THAT's where my problems began with this lock, which eventually lead me to redirect my efforts toward the high areas.
I just had an awful time tagging that very wide, low area to any particular wheel... let alone narrowing down the true center of it.

High/low testing, as well as isolating wheels just seemed to give me some very mixed results. Due to the odd-shaped wheels you think?
Or, it could be the way I went about it. Given the results of my first graph - what test number(s) would you likely use for hi/low testing?
Or when isolating (running a wheel at a time through this low area), where would you say the best place is to park the other two wheels?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:22 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Well, actually I've read and enjoyed every post in this thread. I also like to read Libertyclicks manipulation experiences...

About your question, the test combos could be 11-22-22, 22-11-22, 22-22-11 and 32-22-22, 22-32-22, 22-22-32.
If it's difficult to determine which wheel is indicating in that wide and flat area, I would have guessed one and graphed around. I may have chosen wheel #3 just because it's a lot faster to dial it around so wheels #1 and #2 at left 22, wheel #3 around right. But remember that the word guess should not be used in manipulation context.

Cheers :)
Pictures in my posts are gone due to a policy change by my hosting provider that caught me unprepared. I'll work on that. In the meantime left click the image and open it in new tab, you should be able to see the picture, with a selection of unrelated advertising and banners all around it.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:56 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks so much Femurat. I'm gonna sit down with it and try some of that. As I said, I've left the
same combination in it so I can continue experimenting with what I could've done differently.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Snader

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Post Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:35 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Fantastic read folks,

I'm new to the forum but i would like to offer my approach to mapping and graphing.
Start out with all wheels left because if you find a gate right away theres a 2 to 3 chance that you've found it in the correct turning direction (wheel #1 or wheel #3), this saves time finding the gate again in the opposite direction or having to manipulate right-left-right instead of the usual left-right-left.

If you find a low area, that's great, now you can park wheel #1 at that low area and scan wheel #2 and wheel #3 to the right.
This may produce another low area. Now we have a low area for all wheels left and a low area for wheel #2 and #3 right. If by now we still havent found a gate, it's a good idea to park wheel #1 at its low area to the left, wheel #2 at its low area to the right and scan wheel #3 to the left. If there is still no gate at least it should give a even lower area to the left for wheel #3.
If this is the case, scan wheel #1 to the left, park #2 at its low area and #3 at its low area, the reason for scanning wheel #1 at this point rather than wheel #2 is because if the fence doesnt rest on wheel #3 it most likely rests on wheel #1 (this is however not allways the case as i will show in the next example). This may indicate a gate on wheel #1, if you are really unlucky and it doesnt, then at least you might have found a even lower area on wheel #1.
Park wheel #1 on that lower area again and scan wheel #2 and keep parking wheel #3 at its lowest point.
This method involves constantly looking for low areas until the gates cant hide anymore and is especially useful for particularly difficult to read combination wheels (la gards's)

If you graph a lock that has no low area whatsoever it might help to scan the wheelstack the other way around before you start parking wheels on segments for random low points.
Here's a graph i made a few days ago on a particularly difficult lock. All wheels left, no low area whatsoever.
Image


But then i scanned all wheels right
Image
I dont use the high/low method. I simply throw wheel #3 off the number, check the contact points again, then wheel #2, check the contact points again and then wheel #1 and check again. This works good enough for me.
Found the gate on wheel #2.
To find gate center, i make a high resolution scan around that number again in 0.5 increments and i find it at 84 right on wheel #2.
The reason for finding gate center is because we are dialling a lot of numbers, if we found a gate at lets say 50 and gate center was actually 49, then dialling 50 would sometimes hit the gate and sometimes miss the gate. giving false indications and may cause us to miss a gate on another wheel because the fence could be resting just on the edge of the gate. When we are dialling exactly to gate center, at least we have roughly half a unit to a whole unit margin for dialling error.

Because the graph was so straight i park the stack at 84 right and scan wheel #3 to the left and graph
Image
I make a high res graph for the correct gate center and find it on exactly 27 left on wheel #3

So now we have xx-84-27

dial wheel #1 now and found it at 26-84-27

In my opinion reading graphs is actually more difficult than spinning the dial, making a mental map of the wheels or checking the contact points. There's loads of information in the graphs.
Also, there is no universal method to manipulation. we have to adapt to what we find on the graph and adjust our game plan accordingly, this makes the whole process a serious puzzle as lockpickers we like brainteasers right? :D
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Oldfast

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Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:30 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Snader, welcome to the forum!! VERY much appreciate you sharing your experience and I'm eager to hear more.
My apologies in advance if I've broken up your words/sentences to a point where I've taken them out of context.
Snader wrote:Start out with all wheels......
If you find a low area, that's great, now you can park wheel #1 at that low area and scan wheel #2 and wheel #3 to the right.
This may produce another low area. Now we have a low area for all wheels left and a low area for wheel #2 and #3 right. If by now we still havent found a gate, it's a good idea to park wheel #1 at its low area to the left, wheel #2 at its low area to the right and scan wheel #3 to the left. If there is still no gate at least it should give a even lower area to the left for wheel #3.
If this is the case, scan wheel #1 to the left, park #2 at its low area and #3 at its low area, the reason for scanning wheel #1 at this point rather than wheel #2 is because if the fence doesnt rest on wheel #3 it most likely rests on wheel #1 (this is however not allways the case as i will show in the next example). This may indicate a gate on wheel #1, if you are really unlucky and it doesnt, then at least you might have found a even lower area on wheel #1. Park wheel #1 on that lower area again and scan wheel #2 and keep parking wheel #3 at its lowest point. This method involves constantly looking for low areas until the gates cant hide anymore and is especially useful for particularly difficult to read combination wheels (la gards's)
The wheel progression you've outlined here... it looks promising. I'll give it a go next time I run my LaGard :)
You chose to park wheel 1 at the low point you found with the initial all wheel rotation - I'm curious if there
is any particular reasoning behind this choice? Or, is it simply ease of dialing? I like to call wheel 1 the
'rotisserie' of the wheel pack, lol. Just like the commercial... you can "set it and forget it" LOL

Snader wrote:If you graph a lock that has no low area whatsoever it might help to scan the wheelstack
the other way around before you start parking wheels on segments for random low points.
I agree. I've found that often times a gate may be revealed in one direction, when the opposing direction did not.
It's usually worth taking a look from the other direction before getting too involved in parking wheels and so on.

Snader wrote:The reason for finding gate center is because we are dialling a lot of numbers........[................].......
When we are dialling exactly to gate center, at least we have roughly half a unit to a whole unit margin for dialling error.
Indeed! When I start 'whirl-winding' my way through the rest of the manipulation as fast as possible....
I want the LARGEST margin of error possible! Things can get a touch off when attempting to dial that fast.
Admittedly, I sometimes pay dearly for my break-neck speeds... but if I do not constantly push my limits...
my mind and hand will never achieve the freakishly fast spinnin' I'm hoping to eventually acquire.



On the topic of shadowing and how to overcome it... I would love to hear your thoughts on what I've tried here.
Is this something you've ever done? Do you think this is something that could be consistantly applied to every lock?
Or, could it be that it just so happened to work on this particular lock?

What I'm getting at is this: I am convinced there's GOT to be a quick, consistant, and reliable way of defeating shadows.
One that differs from the conventional way of continuously parking and finding lower & lower points until a gate is revealed.
What I've done here may NOT be this "quick, consistant" method I believe exists.... but I feel it's a step in the right direction.
Oldfast wrote:
By utilizing BOTH the low AND high areas, I hoped to acheive two things:
1) Determine which wheel(s) are actually creating these high areas. And once known...
2) Reposition these wheels in a configuration that produces a reading that is equal to
(or less than) the current lowest reading on my graph... which is 9 5/8 (18-28).

Image

The procedure I've used here is basically identical to hi/low testing. I park all wheels at the high point I'm investigating (90)
I then drag one wheel at a time down to the lowest area on my graph (25) while leaving the other two wheels at the high point.
When a considerable drop occurs in my reading, I can tag the high area to a particular wheel. In this case w1 is creating this mountain.
AWL @ 90 . . . 10 3/8
L90 L90 R25 . . . . 10 1/4
L90 R25 L90 . . . . 10 3/8
R25 L90 L90 . . . . . 9 7/8

AWL @ 55 . . . 9 7/8
L55 L55 R25 . . . . . . 10
L55 R25 L55 . . . . 9 5/8
R25 L55 L55 . . . . 9 7/8
The other area (48-66) is investigated in the same manner. Park AWL @ 55... drag a wheel at a time down to 25.
I've now acquired a much better understanding of this graph, why it looks this way, and what's happening within the lock.
Also notice, during my second test I inadvertently achieved my other goal... which was to obtain a reading of 9 5/8 or better.

Image


p.s. I'd imagine you don't have a ton of time as a working locksmith, but I would love to see you start
a thread like I've done here. It'd be great to look through more of your manipulations! But I also know
that it can be very time consuming to put this kinda stuff into words.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Snader

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Post Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:Snader, welcome to the forum!! VERY much appreciate you sharing your experience and I'm eager to hear more.
My apologies in advance if I've broken up your words/sentences to a point where I've taken them out of context.
Snader wrote:Start out with all wheels......
If you find a low area, that's great, now you can park wheel #1 at that low area and scan wheel #2 and wheel #3 to the right.
This may produce another low area. Now we have a low area for all wheels left and a low area for wheel #2 and #3 right. If by now we still havent found a gate, it's a good idea to park wheel #1 at its low area to the left, wheel #2 at its low area to the right and scan wheel #3 to the left. If there is still no gate at least it should give a even lower area to the left for wheel #3.
If this is the case, scan wheel #1 to the left, park #2 at its low area and #3 at its low area, the reason for scanning wheel #1 at this point rather than wheel #2 is because if the fence doesnt rest on wheel #3 it most likely rests on wheel #1 (this is however not allways the case as i will show in the next example). This may indicate a gate on wheel #1, if you are really unlucky and it doesnt, then at least you might have found a even lower area on wheel #1. Park wheel #1 on that lower area again and scan wheel #2 and keep parking wheel #3 at its lowest point. This method involves constantly looking for low areas until the gates cant hide anymore and is especially useful for particularly difficult to read combination wheels (la gards's)
The wheel progression you've outlined here... it looks promising. I'll give it a go next time I run my LaGard :)
You chose to park wheel 1 at the low point you found with the initial all wheel rotation - I'm curious if there
is any particular reasoning behind this choice? Or, is it simply ease of dialing? I like to call wheel 1 the
'rotisserie' of the wheel pack, lol. Just like the commercial... you can "set it and forget it" LOL

Snader wrote:If you graph a lock that has no low area whatsoever it might help to scan the wheelstack
the other way around before you start parking wheels on segments for random low points.
I agree. I've found that often times a gate may be revealed in one direction, when the opposing direction did not.
It's usually worth taking a look from the other direction before getting too involved in parking wheels and so on.

Snader wrote:The reason for finding gate center is because we are dialling a lot of numbers........[................].......
When we are dialling exactly to gate center, at least we have roughly half a unit to a whole unit margin for dialling error.
Indeed! When I start 'whirl-winding' my way through the rest of the manipulation as fast as possible....
I want the LARGEST margin of error possible! Things can get a touch off when attempting to dial that fast.
Admittedly, I sometimes pay dearly for my break-neck speeds... but if I do not constantly push my limits...
my mind and hand will never achieve the freakishly fast spinnin' I'm hoping to eventually acquire.



On the topic of shadowing and how to overcome it... I would love to hear your thoughts on what I've tried here.
Is this something you've ever done? Do you think this is something that could be consistantly applied to every lock?
Or, could it be that it just so happened to work on this particular lock?

What I'm getting at is this: I am convinced there's GOT to be a quick, consistant, and reliable way of defeating shadows.
One that differs from the conventional way of continuously parking and finding lower & lower points until a gate is revealed.
What I've done here may NOT be this "quick, consistant" method I believe exists.... but I feel it's a step in the right direction.
Oldfast wrote:
By utilizing BOTH the low AND high areas, I hoped to acheive two things:
1) Determine which wheel(s) are actually creating these high areas. And once known...
2) Reposition these wheels in a configuration that produces a reading that is equal to
(or less than) the current lowest reading on my graph... which is 9 5/8 (18-28).

Image

The procedure I've used here is basically identical to hi/low testing. I park all wheels at the high point I'm investigating (90)
I then drag one wheel at a time down to the lowest area on my graph (25) while leaving the other two wheels at the high point.
When a considerable drop occurs in my reading, I can tag the high area to a particular wheel. In this case w1 is creating this mountain.
AWL @ 90 . . . 10 3/8
L90 L90 R25 . . . . 10 1/4
L90 R25 L90 . . . . 10 3/8
R25 L90 L90 . . . . . 9 7/8

AWL @ 55 . . . 9 7/8
L55 L55 R25 . . . . . . 10
L55 R25 L55 . . . . 9 5/8
R25 L55 L55 . . . . 9 7/8
The other area (48-66) is investigated in the same manner. Park AWL @ 55... drag a wheel at a time down to 25.
I've now acquired a much better understanding of this graph, why it looks this way, and what's happening within the lock.
Also notice, during my second test I inadvertently achieved my other goal... which was to obtain a reading of 9 5/8 or better.

Image


p.s. I'd imagine you don't have a ton of time as a working locksmith, but I would love to see you start
a thread like I've done here. It'd be great to look through more of your manipulations! But I also know
that it can be very time consuming to put this kinda stuff into words.



Hi Oldfast, you nailed it with that method.

As for your first question, I normally park wheel#1 because of simply rotational ease. Parking #1 left and scanning #2 and #3 to the right should take about less than 10 minutes and that's while drinking your coffee :D
I dont use a set method of manipulation, i normally start of by scanning wheel #3 to the left with #1 and #2 parked at 10 right.
Then i use that graph to figure out if the fence is resting on wheel #3 (could be that it only rests on wheel #3 on some segments of the dial).
Then normally one full wheelstack scan to the left and then i decide my plan of manipulation on that particular lock.
In your graph you showed a clear indication that there might be two elliptical shaped wheels that were offset to each other and the high points could relatively easily be found on a certain wheel.
If there is no significant 'mountain' slope i'd recommend to keep graphing and finding low points. Eventually you can put the graphs together and make a informed decision where and on wich wheels the high and the low points are.

Also check your fly's before starting manipulation, some times you need to find a combination number to the other turning direction as you found one and knowing you have working flys saves time.
Even worse, a intermittently working fly places the combination wheels at different positions each time and you will keep getting different and counterproductive graphs.
And bring a nylon hammer to set the dial straight into its dial ring. Some times a dial spindle can be slightly bent and the dial is touching the dial ring on some parts of the rotation. You can correct that with a few soft taps on the dial to get it straight again. After that the dial should run smooth again.

Thanks for the kind words oldfast :D
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fgarci03

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Post Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:
Manipulation #1

SARGENT AND GREENLEAF R6700 Series
(standard ... Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence)


First off, I'd like to introduce my girlfriend Alison. And noooo, I did not NAME my lock. lol
In addition to being the love of my life, she is my official (*and certified*) "combo change girl" :D

ImageImage

With an unknown combination.... the excitement begins.

Image

Graph #1 produces the Grand Canyon (kinda hard to miss lol). In addition, there's a questionable area (10-20).
I amplify both areas by taking a reading at every increment (X's and red marker) and find their true centers.

I thought I had found 2 gates in the first graph! Although 10-20 appeared to be a legit gate signature,
further testing of the area revealed nothing convincing enough to run with. So I let it go for now,
and focused on the Grand Canyon. High-low tests determined the gate @ R70 to be on w3.

Image

:???: - :???: - R70 . . . . My next step was to graph wheels 1+2 together while placing w3 on its' known gate:

Image

This graph left little to pursue. My findings up to this point were sound, so
I could only assume that one of the two remaining wheels was masking the other.
My course of action was to park w1 in a low area in hopes of being able to read w2.

Image

This worked. Without the high area on w1 over-shadowing the gate on w2, the outline of a gate appears.
:???: - L91.5 - R70
All that's left to do is run w1 around while placing wheels 2 and 3 on their known numbers. Somewhere within a revolution
of w1 the lock will open... IT DID NOT. I was so close to the opening I had gotten overzealous when I should have still been
graphing. Not only was the lock not open, but I had produced nothing to refer back to in order to try and figure out why.

Up until now I'd been running everything in increments of 2.5. Before investing any more time into graphing,
I thought I'd run w1 around once more, but this time only 2 incs each time before testing the drop-in area.

OPEN: R34 - L91.5 - R70


. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .
Woohoooo!! Lock open.... next contestant please?!! Not quite.
One of the most opportune learning periods is AFTER the lock is open.
With my graphs laid out in front of me... it's time to re-hash some things.


(1) I now know that there's a gate @ 91. Looking at graph#1 (85 - 95), there is some hint of this gate.
Had I a more 'seasoned eye' at the time, would I have investigated this area further? And if I had pursued it,
would I have been able to coax a definitive gate from it with the more refined touch I have now? I think so, yes.

This manipulation occurred some weeks ago, but the dial is still set to the same combo.
I decided to recreate the first graph, doing my best to disregard the known combination.

Image

My sense of touch has certainly improved over time. I also decided to read every 2 increments rather than every 2.5.
If you take a look at this new graph in comparison to the original graph#1, there is indeed a higher resolution. In fact,
there were now 3 areas of interest. I amplified all three areas while using an even lighter touch. As we already knew,
70 showed as a definite gate. 75-80 was ruled out. And our main concern for the test; 91 showed to be a possible gate.
My high-low tests (not pictured here) further proved that 91 was indeed a gate.... and it was on w2.

So I caught 2 of 3 gates in the first graph. Also, had I not known the combination at this point,
I believe my paperwork would've been more than convincing enough for me to roll with it.
This lock would've opened fairly quick, and with no need for a second sheet of paper.

(2) I'm still disturbed that I missed the final gate (@ 34) on w1. Dialing every 2.5 incs landed me on either side of it: 32.5 & 35.
I found that even an extreme amount of oscillation at both these points was insufficient to coax the fence into dropping.
So even if the odds are slim, I can conclude that dialing every 2.5 increments COULD at times, allow for error.


. . . . . . . . . . . . QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . . . .

(1) How would you have approached this lock? In a similar way? Completely different?
I've really takin' a liking to the idea of first running only w3, but here I stuck with the fundementals.
But, running the entire w-pack also has advantages (ie. finding 2 of the 3 gates the first time through).

(2) INCREMENTS: How often should readings be taken? Every 2 increments, or every 2.5?
I'm assuming the answer to this will also depend upon the lock in question. But after this experience (conclusion #2),
I am leary of going 2.5. I'm also still quite slow, so just one graph is a time investment for me. It's disturbing to think I
could miss something after all that. If I were to take readings at every 2 increments - the cost is 10 additional readings
(50 versus 40). But this way, I not only alleviate my doubts but heighten my accuracy. Seems like an acceptable pay-out.

(3) PARKING: I am VERY interested in your thoughts on how to strategically decide the optimal place to park a wheel.
The more I manipulate the more I realize that my success is often times dependent upon my ability to park.
In graph#3: Why on earth did I choose 70 to park w1 at? Well, I made this decision based on the low area in graph#1.
But isn't this incorrect? That low area seen in graph#1 is the profile of the gate on w3. Since every graph thereafter
has this gate under the fence... it stands to reason this low area may very well be gone. When deciding where to
park w1 for graph#3, shouldn't I have been looking to graph#2 for a low area? (like 42.5 or 50)?



Mike,

I've been following this post. But now that I'm starting to spin the dial so to speak, I'm going through ALL your manipulations, and ask questions about everything :mrgreen:
So on manipulation 1, on the end of the post, you said:
When deciding where to
park w1 for graph#3, shouldn't I have been looking to graph#2 for a low area? (like 42.5 or 50)?


Why do you say it's a low area?
I would amplify that area because both seem to be clean gates. Now I know that they're not, but why did you immediatly assumed they weren't?
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:34 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Snader wrote:Thanks for the kind words oldfast
No, thank you! All very good, informative stuff.

Snader wrote:Hi Oldfast, you nailed it with that method.
Good to have the reassurance that I'm on the right track by targeting the high points. But it's ALSO
good to know what to do when there are NOT such definitive areas like there was with this lock.

Snader wrote:Parking #1 left and scanning #2 and #3 to the right should take about less than 10 minutes and that's while drinking your coffee :D
... I like coffee :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:38 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

fgarci03 wrote:I've been following this post. But now that I'm starting to spin the dial so to speak, I'm going through ALL your manipulations, and ask questions about everything :mrgreen:
Well, lookin' over my posts should give you one of two things... help you on what to do... or, show you what NOT to do. lol

fgarci03 wrote:So on manipulation 1, on the end of the post, you said:
Oldfast wrote:When deciding where to park w1 for graph#3, shouldn't
I have been looking to graph#2 for a low area? (like 42.5 or 50)?
Why do you say it's a low area?
Not sure if this is what you're asking, but... when I say "low area" I'm talking about a good indication.
When looking at these spots there's a tendency to wanna call them high spots. These good indications
technically are low spots... because they allow the fence to drop lower into the drive cam gate.

fgarci03 wrote:I would amplify that area because both seem to be clean gates. Now I know that they're not, but why did you immediatly assumed they weren't?
The short answer.... inexperienced at that time! lol. Still am, but not quite as much. When starting out, we always like the comfort of
seeing that huge Grand Canyon gate sig that leaves no doubt. And we'll work hard to find it, all the while, ignoring other possible gates.

Not only did I not investigate the couple you mentioned.... but take a look at graph#1.... around 90 a gate signature CLEARLY exists.
I did not follow that one either. My very first graph actually contained 2 of the 3 combo numbers! That particular manipulation could
have been over after only ONE graph. Instead, it took me THREE. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

fgarci03

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Post Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Not only you have answered them, you added something more :mrgreen: Thanks!

So, on Manipulation 2 (I promise I won't go into EVERY one of them :razz:), you talked about Mark Bates technique on most locks:
Oldfast wrote:He parks wheels 1 and 2 in the middle of the forbidden zone and runs w3 starting at 20..... 1+2 park R10 / 3 LA.
If he finds a gate on w3, he moves on to w2, this time parking w1 at zero....

I find it very interesting and ingenious. I just wonder why parking w1&2 on the phorbidden area on the first read, and on the second parking w2 at 0. Is there a logic reason for that?


And about these latest manipulations with un-simetrical wheels. I really enjoyed reading and learning from them. I'm going to map everything on my lock and test the shit out of it with these methods!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3990

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:03 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I too am impressed with Bates and really like the little bit of info I've seen from him. Wish I could find more!
He calls this "intelligent dialing", and it certainly is. As you continue through my manipulations, you'll see
some of the advantages to this method & some of the disadvantages. But when it works, it can be quick!
Oh, what I wouldn't give to sit down and have a cup of coffee with that guy :mrgreen:

fgarci03 wrote:.....you talked about Mark Bates technique on most locks:
Oldfast wrote:He parks wheels 1 and 2 in the middle of the forbidden zone and runs w3 starting at 20..... 1+2 park R10 / 3 LA.
If he finds a gate on w3, he moves on to w2, this time parking w1 at zero....

I find it very interesting and ingenious. I just wonder why parking w1&2 on the phorbidden area on the first read,
and on the second parking w2 at 0. Is there a logic reason for that?

If we're running ONLY w3, there's no need to take readings through the contact area (forbidden zone).
As you know, wheel 3 should never be set to any of these numbers or a malfunction can/will occur.
So the decision to park wheels 1&2 within the contact area simply gets them out of the way. We
can now run w3's entire revolution without having to worry about bumping or picking up 1 & 2.

For running w2... he chooses to park w1 @ zero. I may be wrong, but to me this seems like a choice
more out of convenience, and not necessarily a strategically based decision. Sometimes I will follow
suite, parking @ zero. Other times, my choice of where to park w1 depends upon where I found the
gate to be on w3. Or, I may not continue with the theme of running a wheel at a time - sometimes
after finding the gate for w3, I choose to run wheels 1 & 2 together.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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