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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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GWiens2001

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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:53 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Hope I am not stepping on toes. Oldfast takes readings every 2 numbers, rather than every 2.5. It takes a little bit longer, but you miss less, and it shows gates more clearly.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Squelchtone

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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

GWiens2001 wrote:Hope I am not stepping on toes. Oldfast takes readings every 2 numbers, rather than every 2.5. It takes a little bit longer, but you miss less, and it shows gates more clearly.

Gordon



Sorry but I still don't get it, what you said is not what I'm seeing on his graph. It looks like 25 and 30 isn't marked, but there are two dashes between 25 and 30, what numbers are those? that's not "every 2 numbers" and maybe 25 and 30 ARE marked but it is hard to see his marks since there are already vertical lines printed on the paper.

I'll wait for him to explain it.

Thanks,
Squelchtone
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

You're correct... I'm taking readings every 2 increments. The area in question is 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, etc.

30 is marked, 25 is NOT. The marks in between the two you're wondering about would be 26 and 28.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Squelchtone wrote:Hi, I enjoy following this thread and learning new things every time you post an update!

I am confused about one thing though because it seems different from the books and manuals I have read that tell you to take readings every 2.5 numbers as in 20, 22.5, 25, 27.5, 30 etc.

I noticed your readings seem to be marked on the graph with 2 tick marks between whole numbers, can you talk more about that and how it works out for you?

Here's the graph I'm talking about:
Image
Thanks and keep posting!
Squelchtone


SquelchtooOOOOooone! Very happy to hear you're still enjoying this thread :)
@Gordon... not AT ALL my friend! I wish more people would chime in as often as you.

Every 2 or 2.5 increments is something I've debated over since my very first manipulation.
According to most people, as well as all text I've read... standard practice is this:
-When graphing wheels in general: incs of 2.5 will indicate where to revisit & amplify.
-When dialing for your final gate: incs of 2 will be more certain to catch that last gate.

Case #22130... the State versus 'Every 2.5 increments' is now in session. Judge Oldfast presiding... you may be seated.


HAAAA!! Juuuuuust kiddding. lol
The textbooks/manuals are correct and the reasoning behind 2.5 inc readings is sound. Most locks will
have a +/- tolerance that creates a slight margin of error for the convenience of the end user. Allowing
the lock to still open even though you may have missed your mark by a hair. Most S&G's have a +/- 0.5.
Also, notice that the majority of the gates throughtout my graphs (including the one you're looking at)
read to be at least 3-4 increments wide. So it stands to reason that 2.5 inc readings will be sufficient.

If I were you Squelch, I'd go ahead and start with 2.5. Let your own personal experience over time be the judge.

Me taking readings every 2 incs is really just a personal preference on my part.
My MO is still flexible though and may change over time with more experience.

2 incs costs me an additional 10 readings (50 versus 40) in order to map one complete revolution. But it produces
more noticeable fluctuations and I'm less apt to miss a gate. This payout seems worth it to me, ESPECIALLY if you
consider free-spinning... when we don't have the luxury of looking back on a graph.

2.5 incs makes sense. We don't want to do any more work than needed - so we utilize the margin of error to its'
fullest by pushing its' boundary. But by doing so, we're left with little room for error & our dialing needs to be
fairly precise now. Say for example you take two readings; the first one you stop slightly short of your mark....
the second, just slightly beyond. Add the two together and you've just taken a reading that's nearly 3 incs apart.

On the other hand, 2 incs still leaves me that bit of dialing slop. I can dial much faster (which compensates for the
time of 10 extra readings
) and still benefit from the more accurate picture it paints. It make sense to me (for now).

When you're just starting out, 10 readings takes a fair amount of time. But after you become
proficient you'll realize that 10 more readings is nothing really... literally a matter of seconds.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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magician59

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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

You can speed things up a bit also by taking only the right contact reading (It's what the speed maipulators do). This is the contact that consistently gives the best indications as the contact area narrows, anyhow. By doing so, some of the best manipulators have turned a 40 minute process into a 5 minute process.
Nemo Malus Felix
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Indeed! Once in a while if I have some doubts, I'll still couple portions of my graph with left contact readings.
But the VAST MAJORITY of the time... the right contact readings will give you all the information you'll need.

Also, I know we were all talking not long ago about different pieces of literature using different
terms when making reference to these two points. So just to clarify what Magician is referring to:
the right contact point is the more gradually sloped side of the drive cam gate.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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Squelchtone

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Post Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:27 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thank you for taking the time to explain this in great detail and for setting me straight. I am itching to try it right now! =)

have a great weekend,
Squelchtone
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:39 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

My pleasure Squelchtone! I really enjoy your company around these parts,
and I'm sure your questions help others as well. You have a good weekend too.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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psykro

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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:12 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

as always Oldfast, wonderful thread man.
i admit i have no idea what you are talking about tho haha.
despite this, i just set aside the 45 minutes or so to read the whole thing thus far, and i think you are incorrect when you say you aren't very intelligent! perhaps you mean a certain kind of intelligence much rewarded by the education system... i think the type of intelligence you display in learning is the most important of all. it is at least, the type that i value in my own mental makeup...
i am going to get a hold of the publications you mention at the beginning of the thread in order to try n understand the basics, rather than ask you the 6 or so questions i have to even begin to grasp manipulation in theory.first i need to get my head around how my crappy master combo works, it baffles me!
i appreciate the time you put into your threads, your commitment to freely sharing what you have learned through hard work and diligence is honourable.
thoroughly enjoying the chronicles, best of luck on the adventure. i hope some old hands offer you some assistance soon!
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Libertyclicks

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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:40 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I'm also going to go back over everything you've done here and read up on techniques and methods in my literature.
Each time I browse through I find something that turns on a light. Thanks again for the great thread Mike! -LC
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:26 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

psykro wrote:....i admit i have no idea what you are talking about tho haha.
despite this, i just set aside the 45 minutes or so to read the whole thing thus far....
lol! I've really got to give you props for that. I use to do the same thing... but it's kinda like reading a chinese
newspaper... lol. Thanks so much for the kind words and don't ever hesitate to throw some questions out.

Libertyclicks wrote:I'm also going to go back over everything you've done here and read up on techniques and methods in my literature.
Each time I browse through I find something that turns on a light. Thanks again for the great thread Mike! -LC
Quite frankly, it's really nice to see some more people getting into this facet of the hobby!
It won't be long Libertyclicks, and I'LL be asking YOU the questions!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:20 am

Re: DIBOLD

Manipulation #11


DIEBOLD 17823

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence


Just as it is with lockpicking, we sometimes hit plateaus.... a wall of sorts that brings our learning curve to a halt.
It can sometimes hold us up for awhile. But once we break through it we begin growing in leaps & bounds once again.
That's where I've been for a few weeks now. I've been here many times before... and as frustrating as is, I usually feel
a little excited deep down - for I know what always follows - break-throughs that allow me to move on to better things.

So here's the thing. This is an old rival from several weeks back. 5AM this morning seemed to be a good time for a reunion.
What's crippling me I think, is the ovular/odd shaped wheels in this lock. I'm currently struggling with the same thing in a
LaGard. The solution, I'm sure, is right in front of me and is probably far more simplistic than I realize. And yet, a sound
and consistant method of dealing with these still eludes me! Any help in regards to this would be greatly appreciated.


Adding to my struggles with this lock are some of the most insane 'ghost-readings' I've ever encountered. I can literally create
three AWL graphs in a row and end up with three very different pictures. Gates (and I mean CLEARLY DEFINED gates) that show
in one graph... are completely GONE in the next. I feel my touch is fairly refined at this point and don't really consider it to be
a variable in all this. Now that it's cracked, I'll be taking a thorough look inside. When I put this one together, all components
were functioning properly. If I find this is still the case, I may work through a few more manipulations with some known
combinations... just to see if I can learn something. But honestly, I'm about ready to put this one behind me. lol


Yes I cracked it finally. And yes, I consider this a win.... hence posting it. HOWEVER, IT DOES NOT FEEL LIKE A WIN :???:
This opening brought about more questions and confusion than excitement. And how I came to the opening left much to be
desired. Felt more like guess-work than strategic reasoning. Hell, I dunno if this'd even be replicable in a similar situation.


Image Image

A flip-sided view of one of the wheels. I noticed the rotational boundary for the fly is created a little
differently than most I've seen. Its' movement is limited by the pin and gate opposite from the fly itself.

Image

Image

Although this may look like one of my quickest openings... lol... don't let me fool you!
I've excluded the MULTIPLE graphs from weeks ago. Partly because I'm tired... but mainly
because I really dunno how the hell to explain what they mean...if they mean anything. LOL

It's actually rather comical - after ALL the problems I had with this lock a while back...
that I got up this morning and popped it after making only ONE graph. *shakes his head*

Image

Two areas of interest appear at 25 and 60-61. If they're actual gates, or what wheels they belong to is anyone's guess.
Hi/lo testing was a flatout clusterfuck. Couldn't catch a gate by isolating either, regardless of where I parked others.

Finally, I decided to take these two possible gates and put them into a configuration similar to a high/low test.
ie. I'd park all wheels at one of these possible gates, then drag one wheel at a time down to the other.
Whether these indications were actually gates or just low areas, my hope was to tag them to a wheel.

All wheels @ L61...... 9 7/8
L61 L61 R25 . . . . 9 7/8
L61 R25 L61 . . . . 9 3/8
R25 L61 L61 . . . . 9 3/8

First test shows 25 is NOT on w3, but may be on w2 or w1
Luckily, the second test is more definitive... 61 is on w1
So I can assume 25 belongs to w2... giving me 61-25-X

All Wheels @ L25...... 9 1/2
L25 L25 R60 . . . . 9 5/8
L25 R60 L25 . . . . 9 5/8
R60 L25 L25 . . . . 9 3/8

Also (in my first test) take note of my initial reading with all wheels @ L61.... 9 7/8.
Compare it with my graph and you'll see that the good indcation of 9 3/8 is GONE.
That's just a small taste of the 'ghost readings' this lock kept spitting at me. lol


L61 - R25 - :???:

I usually wouldn't graph while running the final wheel, but my hopes weren't to high.
At best I figured I might find something on w3, then have to re-work wheels 1 & 2 again.
I didn't include the final graph since it it didn't take long to hit 40 after working up from 25.

OPEN: L61 - R25 - L40

Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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Libertyclicks

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Post Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:00 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oh yeah Ha Haa Ha Ha! ! ! :hbg: :hbg: :hbg:
Nice one! Don't take no for an answer from her!
Is this the Diebold you've been talking about for a while OldFast?!
But honestly, I'm about ready to put this one behind me.

Hahaha she really was rude to you eh? Well it is pretty strange to fight it so long and then have it pop open.
Now, I'm not nearly where you're at, but if I made two graphs of the same thing and they DIDN'T turn out nearly identical, that would be grounds to quit hahaha. Some of them I can't open even with consistent and logical readings.

Great work, love the posts, informative pictures of the wheels was neat to. You said everything was working fine when you took it apart. So this different style of wheel fly wasn't causing any issues in parking you think?

What's crippling me I think, is the ovular/odd shaped wheels in this lock. I'm currently struggling with the same thing in a
LaGard. The solution, I'm sure, is right in front of me and is probably far more simplistic than I realize. And yet, a sound
and consistant method of dealing with these still eludes me! Any help in regards to this would be greatly appreciated.

I just got lucky in that this issue didn't affect me on my practice LaGard. But I have a theory about this as it's been a problem on other locks. I haven't got any concrete proof that this will work, but I'll put it out there and maybe WITH OUR POWERS COMBINED we can make a workable solution.

Oval wheels give a distinct graph shape right?
oval wheels1.jpg

and if we had parked in that example at 0, then what would the graph look like with that wheel parked at 25?
oval wheels2.jpg

Yes yes I know my MS PAINT skills are pretty amazing, but try to hold your applause till the end...
Ok so that's great what did we accomplish? I'm sure you noticed the "low" parts of the oval are now in different areas, so if this ovoid was blocking other wheels, then this way we could read those areas now that we've rotated the red wheel out of the way. If we think in terms of degrees of rotation compared to dial numbers then 25 numbers = 90 degree rotation. 50 numbers is 180 degrees, 75 is 270 degrees and so on.
So What would a graph look like with three identical oval wheels parked at different numbers? Say 10-20-30:
oval wheels3.jpg

Note: This would be the first 3/5ths of said graph. In theory the shape repeats.
Hands up anyone who has seen this pesky little graph before?
So we NEVER have a low area we can get a reading on the bottoms of the oval from. In this situation we only catch the high areas of the oval. And if that's where the gate is then we're ok, but if it's not then we're hooped.
Solution? Well life isn't perfect, but if it was we could park our suspect wheels at different numbers to ROTATE their high parts out of our way so we can read different areas.
oval wheels 4.jpg

Please note: If it were this easy, anyone could do it. You never know what shape each wheel is, and the dial doesn't tell me which wheel the fence is making contact with no matter how politely I ask (oh how I wish it would.)
So you could make a highly suspect w2 graph with w1 and w3 parked at 25 (completely hypothetical example) that could turn out like the Rocky Mountains, but maybe if you put w1 at 40 and w3 stay at 25 then you get a graph with one peak, rather than 6. So this means the high spots are lining up.

So the other big problem here in addition to my colorful theory is ... How many DAYS do you want to spend graphing one lock? Hahahaha. Since it's trial and error, and you can make a whole graph and in the end get nothing useful from it, you could maybe graph one wheel 4, 5, 6 times before you get the lows in areas where you can read the whole wheel around. Anyway, maybe this would come in handy for someone someday if that ONE graph is holding the key but they just can't get the curtain out of the way to see the key.

Sorry for the MS PAINT drop, but I've been mulling this theory in my mind for a bit and this was a convenient time to convert it to digital form.

You da man OldFast! Keep going!
LibertyClicks
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:11 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Libertyclicks wrote:Is this the Diebold you've been talking about for a while OldFast?!
Yup!
Libertyclicks wrote:Hahaha she really was rude to you eh? Well it is pretty strange to fight it so long and then have it pop open.
Tell me about. LOL
Libertyclicks wrote:....So this different style of wheel fly wasn't causing any issues in parking you think?
It's just a different style really. A different design to achieve the same thing.
And no, if they're all functioning properly... this would'nt account for any of my troubles.


I wrote:What's crippling me I think, is the ovular/odd shaped wheels in this lock. I'm currently struggling with the same thing in a
LaGard. The solution, I'm sure, is right in front of me and is probably far more simplistic than I realize. And yet, a sound
and consistant method of dealing with these still eludes me! Any help in regards to this would be greatly appreciated.


So good to have ya here Picasso LOL. Really though, GREAT illustrations & thoughts to get our minds turning!
Thanks for taking the time! This is good. So lets continue rolling with your train of thought here. I can add that...
Libertyclicks wrote:So the other big problem here in addition to my colorful theory is ... How many DAYS do you want to spend graphing one lock? Hahahaha. Since it's trial and error, and you can make a whole graph and in the end get nothing useful from it, you could maybe graph one wheel 4, 5, 6 times before you get the lows in areas where you can read the whole wheel around.

It's more a matter of seconds than days. Take this AWL graph for example.
There's obviously one or more irregular wheels lifting the fence quite high.

Using hi/low testing (literally lol) we can quickly determine WHICH wheel is producing this mountain.

Image

Lets say 90 & 50... a couple of the highest and lowest points on the graph.
Place AWL @ 90, then drag one wheel at a time down to the lowest point @ R50.
L90 L90 R50
L90 R50 L90
R50 L90 L90
When our bad reading of 10 1/4 goes away, we'll know WHICH wheel is the culprit.

For discussions sake, let's say that when I pulled w1 down the low area of 50, my reading dropped to 9 1/4.
So I now know that the position of w1 is what's lifting the fence so high. But again, utilizing this info is the
next step. The general idea is to continue finding better positions for the wheels to allow the fence to drop
further and further until a gate is revealed. But, as we know lol, this is not always as simple as it sounds.
So maybe at this point I would park w1 @ R50 and run wheels 2 & 3 AL? Think we're getting somewhere LC!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:27 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #12

LA GARD 3330

standard ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

Over on the MBA website where professional courses are offered, they describe this lock as "the notoriously unyielding LaGard 3330."
I'd imagine that not every LaGard will react like this... but its' "unyielding" nature is attributed to what's known as wheel shadowing.

This shadowing occurs due to inconsistencies within the wheels. A wheel may appear circular, but may actually be more of an oval shape.
Also, the inner hole of any given wheel may not be perfectly centered. Either (or both) of these factors can create extreme highs & lows
around the circumference of a wheel. With the fence predominatly resting on one of these high areas, enough lift is generated to allow
gates of other wheels to pass beneath undetected. Intentional by design or simply a lack of quality, matters not - it can pose problems.

Still fairly inexperienced, this lock proved to be one of the most difficult for me thus far. But it's also been a great stepping stone.
Libertyclicks - thank you for taking your time to brain-storm with me a bit. And, for sharing your computer generated illustrations.
Your pictures certainly helped to get my mind turning once again... as well as the wheels in this LaGard. Much appreciated friend.


ImageImage
Walnut with one light coating of linseed oil.

Image
A flip-sided view of a LaGard wheel. Notice the small dimples around the edge of the wheel,
likely from the manufacturing process. They don't necessarily pose a threat, but they can
reflect in your readings... usually creating a fluctuation of around 1/8 - 1/4 of an inc.

Image



An AWL graph produces one low area (18-28). As tempting as this is... my focus must first be directed towards the high areas!
Two high areas that appear to be seperate from each other: One spanning from 48-66. The other, a mountain that peaks at 90.

By utilizing BOTH the low AND high areas, I hoped to acheive two things:
1) Determine which wheel(s) are actually creating these high areas. And once known...
2) Reposition these wheels in a configuration that produces a reading that is equal to
(or less than) the current lowest reading on my graph... which is 9 5/8 (18-28).

Image

The procedure I've used here is basically identical to hi/low testing. I park all wheels at the high point I'm investigating (90)
I then drag one wheel at a time down to the lowest area on my graph (25) while leaving the other two wheels at the high point.
When a considerable drop occurs in my reading, I can tag the high area to a particular wheel. In this case w1 is creating this mountain.
AWL @ 90 . . . 10 3/8
L90 L90 R25 . . . . 10 1/4
L90 R25 L90 . . . . 10 3/8
R25 L90 L90 . . . . . 9 7/8

AWL @ 55 . . . 9 7/8
L55 L55 R25 . . . . . . 10
L55 R25 L55 . . . . 9 5/8
R25 L55 L55 . . . . 9 7/8
The other area (48-66) is investigated in the same manner. Park AWL @ 55... drag a wheel at a time down to 25.
I've now acquired a much better understanding of this graph, why it looks this way, and what's happening within the lock.
Also notice, during my second test I inadvertently achieved my other goal... which was to obtain a reading of 9 5/8 or better.

Image

So I will now use this same configuration ... L55 R25 L55 ... to begin isolating wheels.
Naturally, I start with w3. A little more variation now occurs, but still no gate. I suppose running w2 next would
be the logical order... lol... but for some reason I decided to jump to the other end of the wheel pack and run w1.

Image
A gate @ 13-14 is finally revealed for w1. Even if this is not an actual gate... I will utilize it.

L131/2 - :???: - :???:

I run w2 around.... nothing definitive.
Image

Having found a gate on w1... w3 has no choice but to surrender her gate to me. Not the most convincing of gates... but I'll take it!
Image

L131/2 - :???: - L60

wheels 1 & 3 on their known gates.... w2 around every 2 incs...

OPEN: L131/2 - R22 - L60



. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .
Overall, I feel this lock is a great stepping-stone in my learning curve. Similar to going from standard pins to spools.
My multiple attempts & failures with this one has certainly heightened my awareness & understanding of some things.

At the same time, when it comes to these 'shadow games', I'm almost certain there are some VERY large holes in my game.
Running more manipulations through this lock will bring more discoveries. I may find this method is not a sound & consistant
means of overcoming this shadowing effect. I'll leave the current combo in it for now in hopes you guys have some ideas to try.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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