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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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Squelchtone

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Post Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:26 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

OldFast,

Awesome story man! I wish my area Lowes sold safes, gonna have to go check now and see if they do or not.

What was the store employees reaction to you getting it open? =) (and am I correct to say that the combo was on the side of the safe all the time, you just chose not to look at it? and that the combo was not actually correct which is why it would not open for the employees?)

Great job! very inspirational for those of us just starting to learn manipulation,

Squelchtone
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Squelchtone wrote:....Great job! very inspirational for those of us just starting to learn manipulation....
Thanks!! Fun stuff man.... fun stuff. After being so intrigued by this shit for so many
years... it really is neat to finally be in the midst of it. Lots and LOTS to learn yet.

Squelchtone wrote:....and am I correct to say that the combo was on the side of the safe all the time, you just chose not to look at it?
Right. As tempting as it was at times (especially when doubt creeps in), I would've kicked myself in the ass if I had. lol
I started out by running thru some of the possible factory settings just in case. Then Ali told me "they" were "random #s".

Squelchtone wrote:....and that the combo was not actually correct which is why it would not open for the employees?
The combination wrote on the side of the safe is correct. The slight variation you notice between my #s and theirs
is due to directional rotation. I cracked the safe with a R-L-R configuration (opposite of what you'd usually do).
Normal dialing procedure would be L-R-L ... (which IS the combination wrote on the side of the safe).

The width of the fly(s) is what creates this difference. You can align a gate under the fence from either direction,
but the number on the dial is going to be slightly different. It varies from lock to lock... and also from wheel to
wheel. Wheel 3 (next to cam) will have the smallest difference. Wheel 1 will have the largest (since all the
wheels are being moved in order to position it... there's more flys involved, hence more variation
).

The few pieces of literature I've read so far touch only briefly on rotational conversion. In my opinion,
it's a subject worthy of more elaboration! If anyone's ever interested enough... I could maybe do a
quick write-up that would hopefully make a little more sense. But basically, if you park all wheels,
then pick them up one at a time... you can note the difference that will occurr for each wheel.

I'm certain the employees that couldn't open it were simply getting the # of rotations mixed up.

Squelchtone wrote:....What was the store employees reaction to you getting it open? =)
lol. It's unheard of to go into Lowes without a half dozen people asking if you need any help...
but surpisingly nobody bothered me for my final session. It didn't take long. I had only one
wheel left to find through trial and error... then it was picture time.

I didn't talk with anyone on my way out... but considering they didn't give me any shit for my
multiple visits... lol... I suppooooose I should at least offer them a quick lesson in rotation 101.
I have a feelin' no one will really care... ha!... but I'll ask next time I'm there anyway.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:49 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #10

ILCO UNICAN w/ S&G dial

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence



Many of the locks I've been receiving were previously mounted on some rather thin doors,
leaving me with a short spindle to work with. Mounting on thin 7/16 wood can be tricky,
but I'm starting to get the hang of it. This one's on oak with a light coat of linseed oil.


ImageImage


Image

CONTACT POINTS
LCP 5 ....... RCP 17

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
3/8 .... 1 .... 2 .... respectively

This one threw me for a bit of a loop for a minute. Started with an AWL rotation.
The good indication was near the contact area. Taking readings within it can be
a little tricky sometimes. So this was some great practice... thanks to Alison.

My readings between 5 and 20 would come and go... giving some rather mixed results.
That's when I went through the area once more, this time coupling it with a left
contact reading. You can see the two coincided at 20. I went with 19.

Image

What wheel is 19 on? High/low tests, at first, were very definitive - placing it on w2.
But once again, my readings became ghosts, coming and going with each new try.
For example: my low test number (5) would either show a big change of a 1/4
increment on w2, or it showed no change at all between the three wheels.

So I reverted to isolating w2. I parked wheels 1 & 3 @ 6 and ran w2 through the area in question.
At this point, the only thing I'm certain of is that w2 is indicating (a pleasant surprise & a 1st for me).

But in addition to the drop at 19, another (even more promising) area (9) is produced. According to this
isolation graph, 9 yields more of a gate signature than does 19. However, 9 had not shown AT ALL in
the first graph. And, considering BOTH left & right contact readings pointed to 19... I went with it.

:???: - R19 - :???:

Image

Again, it's neat to finally encounter a lock where w2 is the first to read. Vast majority of the time,
w3 reads first, then w2, then w1. Sometimes you'll have just the opposite order of 1, 2, 3.
But I think it's safe to say that w2 reading first is probably the most unlikely to occur.

So I now have a several options: I can graph w1 by itself... w3 by itself... or both 1 & 3 together.
Running w1 by itself, or wheels 1 & 3 together are going to require the most turns. On the other
hand... running w3 is not only going to be the easiest, but it's also the most apt to read next.


Image

I didn't map the entire wheel circumference. No need (normally) to run w3
through the forbidden zone... especially with such a convincing gate at 81.

:???: - R19 - L81

As always, the gate on the final wheel (w1) can now be found by running it in increments of two...
while placing wheels 2 & 3 on their known gates of 19 & 81. After doing this the lock was not open.

Although the lock hadn't opened, I did take note of 42 as I worked w1 around.
I noticed the fence really wanted to drop in. I worked through this area once
more. One increment at a time from 39-44..........................still no go.

Now, recall the 'ghost readings' and confusion that surrounded the gate on w2?
Graph #1 showed 19. But when isolating w2 I had also found a signature at 9.
Before investing time in another full-scale graph, why not try it real quick?

OPEN: L42 - R9 - L81

Although 19 was not the gate for w2, it was actually just as deep as the gate itself.
This allowed the fence to drop low enough for me to find the gates on wheels 1 & 3.




Fully disassembled & cleaned... ready to be lubed as I reassemble it.
Most dials come to me in need of moderate to extensive refurbishing.

I use to be in a hell-of-a rush to get them in working order and mounted so I could start spinning.
But I've come to take my time and really enjoy the process... and find it gratifying and meditative.
Slowly & meticulously caring for each piece, until a beautiful & smooth-running mechanism is reborn.


Image
Last edited by Oldfast on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Libertyclicks

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:18 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Beautiful lock Oldfast.
I'm taking a LOT more out of reading your adventures now.
I'm looking at your 2nd graph. Since you are working w3 around and you catch a gate there, does that without a doubt place that gate on wheel 3? That hadn't occurred to me that would work. I ask because the same happened when you amped wheel 2, that 9 (which was eventually correct) also cropped up when you spun 2 only. So you intuit it is on w2 I take it.
LC
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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:06 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Very nice, Oldfast. I agreed that the signature on 19 for w2 is not as clear as the gate signature for 9, but with both RCP and LCP indicating, would most likely have followed 19 as well.

The gates do not look like a S&G, so the lock itself may be an ILCO with a S&G dial. Have the opposite here with an ILCO dial and S&G lock body. :-)

As always, very nicely done.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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xeo

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:14 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I've been following this for a while now. I am still not intriged enough to try it for myself. If a pick were involved then perhaps. Despite all of this, you seem to be progressing nicely with 10 manipulations. What is the next step up in terms of advanced dials? What are the "high security" combination locks that are very difficult (but possible)? Do you have plans to attempt those? How far along are you in terms of difficulty?
Last edited by xeo on Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:00 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Maybe he can try modifying a safe lock with false gates in the wheels and see how that increases difficulty. That should step it up a notch. I suspect I would be like going from a Master #3 to a Commando lock. It would take a LOT more skill.

What do you think, Mike?
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Squelchtone

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:37 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

You could move up to a 4 wheel S&G Group 2, or a 6730 Group 2M which offers some manipulation proofing, but I'm not sure what that might be exactly. I'm regressing in my learning by buying up old safe locks from the late 1800's and early 1900's, such as the Mosler 5H friction fence safe lock that arrived today. It only has 1 contact point, not 2 like newer locks, and it uses gears inside so you lose some feedback, and to me that is harder. It also has 4 combination wheels.

Squelchtone

edit: I just ran across this safe lock maker with the red wheels, I know this was recently discussed here somewhere perhaps by GWiens. http://www.bigredsafelocks.com/
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Libertyclicks wrote:...I'm looking at your 2nd graph. Since you are working w3 around and you catch a gate there, does that without a doubt place that gate on wheel 3? That hadn't occurred to me that would work. I ask because the same happened when you amped wheel 2, that 9 (which was eventually correct) also cropped up when you spun 2 only. So you intuit it is on w2 I take it...
Absolutely. You got it! Because we are moving only one wheel, any indications that occur, undoubtedly belong to that wheel.
Everything has it's advantages & disadvantages. This is one of the upsides to isolating a wheel. We can avoid hi/low testing.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:08 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

GWiens2001 wrote:...The gates do not look like a S&G, so the lock itself may be an ILCO with a S&G dial...

I agree. The gates do look a bit different. Think I'll look around at some pictures, then maybe edit the title. Thanks Gordon!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:09 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

xeo wrote:....What is the next step up in terms of advanced dials? What are the "high security" combination locks are that very difficult (but possible)?
Do you have plans to attempt those? How far along are you in terms of difficulty?....

My girlfriend always asks "why can't you just answer people with just a couple senctences?". lol. So here's the "short version":
Difficulty level- I'd say I'm more or less at the beginning. And yes, there's certainly a wide field to play as I work up the ladder.

Now, the long version....haha!...

In terms of progression (and I may be talkin' beyond my knowledge here)... but mechanical locks are rated and categorized
into 'Groups' based on manipulation resistance (along with MANY other tests & attacks... which are of no interest to me).

Group 2 locks (which is where I'm at) provide "moderate" resistance to manipulation. There are no additional security features
on the wheels, drive cam, or lever. You could say this is your 'standard' lock & most commonly seen in use throughout the world.
To quite a degree, these are used on some rather high-end safes. Matt Blaze expresses surprise & concern over this in his paper.

I'm realizing there is much to be had yet in the 'group 2 realm'! I've worked mainly with S&G's so far. But for example, I've two
locks that are still posing problems for me - a LaGard and a Diebold. The wheels are standard yes, but they seem to be ovular,
creating a shadowing affect. They mask other gates from being read & require parking certain wheels in order to read others.

Every make and model poses different problems to work around. In fact, a single lock can react much differently by putting a
new combo in it. One combo will allow me to clearly catch all the gates. A different combo in the same lock is now giving off
that shadowing affect, making me really work to find each gate. I have about a half dozen dials now. I'm constantly working
new combos in each of them. I hate to admit it, but I've never been all too bright lol. Most of what I accomplish is simply due
to insane diligence... not intelligence! Between these locks I probably have 50+ openings. It use to take me a couple of days
and several sessions to open one. I can now sometimes run through most, if not all of them in an evening. When all this
becomes as natural as breathing, and very little thought is involved... I'll set my sights on the next group....

Group 2M locks are designed to resist expert manipulation for 2+ hrs. Features include false gates on the wheels
and an eccentric roller in the lever nose (appears to be a small roller disc that's seating in the nose). I'd imagine
this would complicate matters, making it difficult to achieve consistant readings. Or take for example the Mosler
302.... its' wheels appear to be circular, but are in fact comprised of 32 sides. The graph for such a wheel would
probably look similar to the Appalachian mountains. lol

At the top of the food chain is the Group 1 locks. Withstanding 20+ hrs of expert manipulation. From what I've seen,
most of the modifications seem to be geared toward the drive cam itself in an attempt to prohibit the manipulator
from being able to even take readings from its' gate in the first place. The "holy grail" of these is S&G's 8400 series.
Its' drive cam reminds me of something straight from an alien movie HA! It consists of two elements and can only
be activated when the dial's at zero. The two pieces expand in either direction like butterfly wings. Beautiful.
One side covers the drive cam gate, while the other side locks the dial in place so that it cannot be turned.
I have one of these... but haven't grown the balls to even mount it yet. lol

Then there are the direct entry type locks. Far less secure than a group 2 and really in a
different category all together. Manipulating these mechanisms are a whole different
ball game requiring a different technique. I have yet to step foot on this playing field.

Xeo, it's good to cya over here. I figured you'd been keepin' tabs on my progress :) but assumed it's just not something that intrigues you. That's cool. If you've been following this thread you've probably noticed the multitued of questions I've posed... and nearly all of them have gone unanswered. That's ok and I don't take offense to that at all. I humbly say I feel a bit like a pioneer...lol... I KNOW I'm not the ONLY one by ANY means... but I sometimes feel like that.

I wanna make very clear that my main drive here is fueled by a true passion. But I have to admit, there's a secondary, underlying motive that keeps me pressing on with (dare I say it) a sort of vengeance. It's a touchy subject. Everyone has an opinion on it. And I thoroughly respect that. I understand the years of secrecy surrounding manipulation and even agree with it to some extent. It shouldn't bother me, it really shouldn't... but it does. People hoarding this shit as if it were some sort of holy fuckin' grail. As if they get to decide if I am "woooorthy" of receiving it....lol.... it just erks me a bit. In all fairness, the few people around here that have answers for me, I think are more than willing to share it. But I think it comes down to time they don't have. I find it takes ALOT of time to put this kinda shit into words that make any sense. Anyway, hopefully I'm not coming across cocky or hateful... it's just the way I feel sometimes. Just my (little ol' me) opinion. So it's a VERY slow learning curve... but the locks & liturature are out there for everyone & anyone now days... and I think the "dark ages" may be coming to an end. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Squelchtone wrote:You could move up to a 4 wheel S&G Group 2, or a 6730 Group 2M which offers some manipulation proofing, but I'm not sure what that might be exactly. I'm regressing in my learning by buying up old safe locks from the late 1800's and early 1900's, such as the Mosler 5H friction fence safe lock that arrived today. It only has 1 contact point, not 2 like newer locks, and it uses gears inside so you lose some feedback, and to me that is harder. It also has 4 combination wheels.

edit: I just ran across this safe lock maker with the red wheels, I know this was recently discussed here somewhere perhaps by GWiens. http://www.bigredsafelocks.com/
Ah yes, even more to explore. 4-wheel locks, friction fences, and old/antique safes. Also, VERY intersting link!
And I wouldn't call it "regressing" by looking more into old safe locks... I think that's a grand place to start. Certainly interesting.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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xeo

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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:31 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Speaking from my own personal experience in being "scared" of attempting to pick a very high level lock as a beginner, I would recommend trying it even if you don't feel confident. Treating it like "just another lock" is what helped me shed that psychological barrier and break through to the next level.

As far as your last paragraph. I think I know what vengeance you are refering to and I agree with you. Nothing can be kept in the dark forever. Sooner or later it will all be revealed and good will come out of it. I am all for shattering the walls and lifting the veils. You should definitely continue what you are doing without any second thought.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:41 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I very much appreciate (and agree with) both those thoughts. Thanks
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Squelchtone

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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Location: Springfield MA USA

Post Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:04 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Hi,

I enjoy following this thread and learning new things every time you post an update!

I am confused about one thing though because it seems different from the books and manuals I have read that tell you to take readings every 2.5 numbers as in 20, 22.5, 25, 27.5, 30 etc.

I noticed your readings seem to be marked on the graph with 2 tick marks between whole numbers, can you talk more about that and how it works out for you?

Here's the graph I'm talking about:
Image

Thanks and keep posting!
Squelchtone
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