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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:14 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #6
FAIL


VANGUARD 2.0

standard ... 3 wheel ... mesh change ... spring loaded fence


So here she is. Someone let me borrow this about the time I was getting started in this game, and I've now had it for nearly 2 months.
Weeks went by and graphs piled up as I worked this dial to no avail. I took frequent breaks consisting of a few days, or even a
week... returning to it with a fresh mind. Sometimes my new attack was formulated by pondering over my previous
graphs. Other times, I thought it best to start over entirely, disregarding any of my previous findings.

My biggest problem was inconsistant readings. Sometimes what appeared to be a gate, would just simply vanish entirely when amplified.
Other times, I was able to conclude to my satisfaction that there was a gate... but then had one hell of a time determining which wheel
it might be on. As time went on, I think doubt corrupted my mind to such an extent that my logical reasoning disappeared as quickly
as some of those gates had!! LOL! At times I was SO VERY TEMPTED to remove the lock cover... but I absolutely refused! lol

Everything seemed to be in working order. Each wheel picked up relatively close from where I parked them.
Wheels 3, 2, and 1 would pick up at a difference of 1, 2, and 2.5 increments respectively. The drive pins
and flys were good. Lever was still springy, functioning properly. Both contact points could be felt.

Image Image

LOL! At first glance, this nastiness would almost look like a legitimate reason for my fail... but it's not.
Yes, it did cause a 'snag point' when turning the dial, but the snag was nowhere near the contact area
and posed no complications. In regards to nearly half the dial having no increments; a piece of tape
and a marker gave me all the spacial reasoning needed for readings. So again, no excuse here.

Image

By the time I felt justified in opening it up... my graph count had reached sixteen!
A valiant effort by anyones standards I think. But even then, I hated to do it. lol

Image

Most certainly the root of my troubles! The discovery of a very loose drive cam.
Holding the cam while turning the dial, there was a fair amount of play between the two.

It was nice to encounter the mesh-type wheels for the first time. The only
kind I have yet to work with now I think are the screw-hole type wheels.

Image

What eluded me for so long was finally revealed:
23 - 8 - 39

Image

viewing both sides of a wheel:
You can see the fly on one side and the drive pin on the other.
Note the index mark on the inner hub along with the gear-shaped teeth that
allow the inner and outer rings to mesh together to become one solid wheel.

Image Image

Each wheels' combination is dictated by the orientation of the inner hub to the gated outer ring.
Simply pop the inner portion of the wheel out... align the index mark with the desired
number on the outer portion of the wheel.... then snap them back together.

Image

But here's where it get interesting! Now knowing the combination, I sifted through my pile of 16 graphs.
I found that two of these graphs actually contained everything needed for a successful opening :shock:

On one of my graphs I had ran the entire wheel pack right around. I had found and CONFIRMED a gate @ 8.
Obviously I didn't know it at the time... but this was wheel 2... the first to read in this particular lock.
At what point, (and WHY?!) I ever left this conclusion.... I dunno.

In another graph, I had parked wheels 1 and 2 in a low area in an attempt to read w3. What became of it was a
CLEAR indication of a gate between 35 and 40. That was w3 (39)! I had never even pursued it. *shakes his head*

23 - 8 - 39



. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

-Stay calm, and stay confident. If you're able to conclude somthing... stick with it!

-Enjoy the journey AS MUCH (if not more) than the destination.
Take comfort in knowing that it's just a matter of time.

"In 1966, Andy Dufresne escaped from Shawshank prison. All they found of him was a muddy set of prison clothes,
a bar of soap, and an old rock hammer, damn near worn down to the nub. I use to think it would take six-hundred
years to tunnel under the wall with it. Old Andy did it in less than twenty. Oh, Andy loooved Geology. I guess it
appealed to his meticulous nature. An ice age here, million years of mountain building there. Geology is the
study of pressure and time. That's all it takes really..... pressure, and time.
"

;) lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:22 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast,

Thank you for my first views of a mesh lock. Interesting, did you find the plastic wheels feel much different than the metal ones?

I always felt that a person can learn more from their failures than from their successes. Your last comments at the end of your last post show that you do, too!

Keep up the great work!

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:40 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

GWiens2001 wrote:....did you find the plastic wheels feel much different than the metal ones?....

No. It was actually a surprise to me when I finally took the lock apart. From just spinnin' the dial though, I had no idea.
Not saying there isn't a difference... just saying I couldn't feel it. Now that you mention it though, there MIGHT
be a very slight difference in sound and feel that can be felt as each wheel is picked up.

I really wasn't able to find much info on these VANGUARDS.
I know that SEARS sold them for a number of years. But that's about it.


GWiens2001 wrote:....I always felt that a person can learn more from their failures than from their successes....

Indeed! Considering all the correct readings were there for the taking and I did not utilize the info -- this manipulation left
me looking at my mental state. My touch was there, but my mind was not. I allowed this lock to play brain-games with me.
And it thoroughly kicked my ass on this mental battlefield. lol

I also realized a quality that still eludes me; being able to step back and take a good overall analysis of what has happened,
why, and what needs to happen. See, there's a couple of manipulation methods that I've become fairly proficient with.
They're pretty standard and stright forward. But when one, or both of these do not work... I'm left scratching my head
a bit. Hopefully with time I'll become more apt at utilizing the information I've gathered. Much work to be had yet.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Daggers

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Post Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:07 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Could the wheels be made of delrin? Because if so, it might be an indication that it's a Group 1R lock which is supposed to be significantly harder than group 2 locks such as the S&G 6700.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:55 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Funny you mention delrin. Just last night I was looking into the difference between it and your standard, run of the mill
plastic. What I found was a cluster-fuck of chemistry and technical terms...lol... not much of a read for someone like me.

What these wheels are actually comprised of and whether or not they'd resist a radiological attack... I dunno.
But I do know this is most likely a standard group 2 lock, or maybe even an unrated one. Beyond the composition
of the wheels, they're are no added features of any sort to discourage manipulation.

The group 1 locks are only going to be found on high-end safes and vaults usually.
I've actually been thinking of purchasing a Group 2M directly from Sargent & Greenleaf.
Looks very interesting. A ball-bearing seated in the lever nose & false gates in the wheels.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

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Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:36 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #7

SARGENT & GREENLEAF

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... mesh change ... spring loaded fence


Image

Due to the circumstances surrounding this one, I won't be including numbers or graphs.
The way in which I arrived at the combination would probably be a bit difficult for
me to put into any logical format anyway...lol...so I suppose this is just as well.

I ran only one graph on this, followed by some free-spinning before I reached an opening.
Ok, using the word 'some' is probably downplaying it a bit... in actuality, it was more
like a fair amount of free-spinnin' (some of which was done a bit half-hazardly) lol.
Nevertheless, I was able to get it open... and I had alot of fun in the process!

Image Image

Image Image

Image Image

Image

Most interesting to me was the gate signatures this lock produced.
I recreated the two types of signatures here so you could take a look.
Readings were taken every 2 increments. The drops you see are only 1/8
of an increment. And the red X's are where the actual gate was found to be.

Image

The signature on the left is what I'm use to seeing... usually a little more exaggerated though.
But it still has the classic trait -- readings drop at the gate and raise back up on either side of it.

The signature on the right however, is more subtle. Readings drop at, or near the gate, but
never come back up again! My first encounter with this. Yet another good learning experience.

Workin' the Dial....

I created one graph, then went free-spinning from there. The AWL graph produced four areas of interest.
Only one of these areas held the classic signature we're use to seeing, while the other three were of the
subtle type. The entire graph, all the way across, contained only two readings -- either 6 5/8, or 6 3/4.

Turns out, this one graph had picked up on all three gates. Obviously, I didn't know this at the time....
and even if I had... the process from here on was not as straight foward as you might think. I found
it difficult to verify a gate or what wheel it belonged to. My free-spinning entailed a number
of things; trial & error, process of elimination, taking readings, and just going by feel.

One of the best things I had going for me with this lock was the fact that the left contact point
was nonexistant. So with its' presence (faint as it was) came a pretty good clue that I had found
a gate, or was at least on the right track. At times, it allowed me to skip readings all together.

None of this really occurred in any sort of logical or masterful order... lol!
Lets just say I have alot to learn yet. But hey... it's open, and I had fun.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Daggers

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Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:27 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

How are safes that have the handle different to manipulate if they're different at all? Is the mechanism the same as in you need to spin to dial to retract the bolt or does the turning of the handle retract the bolt?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

In this case, it requires both -- first the dial, then the handle.

There's actually two seperate locking mechanisms, but one impedes the other from working.
You see the bolt that protrudes from the lock case?... that's operated with the dial. Then,
you have the doors' bolt work, which is operated by the handle. Once the lock case bolt
is retracted (with correct combination) the doors' bolt work is freed up and can be
retracted using the handle. Hopefully that makes sense... take a look at the pics.

So during manipulation, our focus is on the dial. However, I have seen people jiggling
the handle while manipulating. I assume this is an effort to coax the fence to drop
into a gate(s).... similar to the way oscillation is used. But I'm not sure of this.
Maybe someone else could enlighten us?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Daggers

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Post Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

ohhh i see now. The bolt from the combination lock goes to the handle and doesn't actually lock the door, just the handle.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #8

SARGENT AND GREENLEAF R6700 Series
(Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence)


Hard to tell from the small pics... but this is a beautiful dial, and even more so at the sweet price of only $15.
The color is sort of a translucent 'black pearl'. Rather than a wood grain background, I decided to go with
a metallic silver spary paint.... the type that dries leaving you with a hammered metal kind of look.

As always, its' first stop rests with the lovely Alison for a new combination unknown to me!
So beautiful... smooth, supple, soft, & firm... all at once. I don't know how she does it.
Personally, I tend to beleive she's some sort of hybrid... but I dunno. lol



ImageImage



Image

You can see there's significant wear on this drive cam. I thought about replacing it, but why?
I'm sure there's plenty of old locks out there like this. It creates for a very gradual slope
for the right contact point and I was a bit curious how much (if at all) it would affect
manipulation. Turns out, it didn't really. I did find a slightly lighter touch than
normal was required in order to get more consistant readings.

Image

CONTACT AREA
96 3/8 - 7 1/4

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
7/8 .... 1 3/4 .... 2 1/4 ....respectively


I don't know what it is, but one of my favorite parts of manipulation is when I first sit down
to a fresh lock and start thinking about how exactly I want to go about tackling it this time.
I decided to start with the more traditional all-wheels-left rotation.

Image

With all wheels parked at L76, I switched directions, picked up w3, and brought it down to 66.
The good indication of 7 1/8 was now gone... replaced with a reading of 7 5/8. I could be
fairly certain 76 was on w3, but just to be sure, I also threw w2 & w1 off 76 as well.

:???: - :???: - L76


Graph #2 entailed running wheels 1 & 2 together while placing w3 on its' known gate @ 76.

Image

Not that there couldn't be a gate lurking between 48 & 56... but with such a clearly defined gate @ 32,
there's no reason to pursue 48-56. Only 2 unknown wheels remaining - 32 is on one of them, and the
other can be found through trial and error. The only question is... is the gate at 32 on w1 or w2?

Image

So here's where this lock puts me on a fun detour! A little frustrating yes... but a pleasant surprise really.
Here you can see my high test (+10) indicates w2. Granted, I didn't take both right & left contact points
and subtract the two. Nor did I couple it with a low test. But 1/4 of an increment is a convincing jump.
That coupled with the fact that a fair amount of locks will read in this order of 3, 2, then 1, had me
rolling with it without reservation. I ran w1 while placing wheels 2 & 3 on 32 and 76. Wrong!!! lol
L :???: - R32 - L76


So now I must consider the possibility that the gate at 32 belongs to w1... not w2.
I'll place w1 @ 32, and run w2 around in increments of 2... each time placing w3 @ 76.
32 - X - 76
For ease of dialing, I wanted a L-R-L rotation though. 32 was found with a right rotation.
So I must convert it so that I can dial it from the left and still align the gate under the fence.
Recall w1 picked up at a difference of 2 1/4? I must dial beyond 32 by that same amount: 34 1/4

L341/4 - R :???: - L76

The revolution for w2 started from 34...
so it wasn't far off before hitting 14

OPEN: L341/4 - R14 - L76



. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .
4:30 in the morning is not always the best time to start spinnin'. lol

Nah, really though... after this manipulation was done, I went back to the high/low tests.
I re-worked them fully and correctly; both high & low, taking right & left contact readings.
In fact, I did several tests; one of them a (+/-10)... the other a (+/-5). I even tried some test
numbers farther out too. ALL of the tests came back the same, indicating the gate was on w2.

High/low testing is usually quick and fairly accurate, especially when done correctly. But not always.
This is not the first time I've received misleading results with this method. Nothing really is ever 100%
For example; where you throw the wheel could place it in a low or high area... or even in another gate.
All the more reason to take high AND low tests. The more tests, the easier it is to spot conflicting results.

It's always nice to have other options. Another method I like to use involves simply isolating wheels.
In other words I run only one wheel through the area in question while parking the other two. If I get
a reading, then it's absolutely on that wheel, cause it's the only wheel I'm moving. But again, there's
downsides to this as well. Just because you don't get a reading doesn't mean the gate is not on that
wheel. Where you parked the other two wheels, may not allow a reading on the one you're running.

So for example, take my situation.... when I was trying to determine if 32 belonged to w1 or w2.
I took readings on w1 at 34, 32, and 30. After each placement of w1, I parked wheels 2 & 3 at L76.
When I did this, the drop clearly occurred at 32. Had I done this, I would've known 100%, 32 was w1.

I don't necessarily have a preference between these two methods. They're both good, and both have
their pros & cons. I normally use one or the other, sometimes both. It really just depends on
the situation, the results I'm getting, and the amount of doubt that accompanies them.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Finding which wheel has given you an indication is certainly a crucial part of manipulation.
I'd LOVE to hear any and all thoughts you might be willing to share on this!

(1) Do you have a preference between these two methods, or have a different technique all together?

(2) Just how far off your indication should your test #'s be? +/- 10 seems to be the standard.
But I wonder if this isn't too far. Maybe it could/should be a little closer. +/- 5 or 7 maybe?

(3) Do you see any flaws in my game, or things I could improve upon in this department?



Happy Dialin' Folks
MIKE
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:12 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Significant wear? It looks like the drive cam had big dirt particles leaving deep scratches in that picture. Is that just the picture? It also looks like that drive cam has taken some hits from the nose of the lever. Did you check out the flys? I am no expert, that is why I am asking these questions... So I can learn.

Gordon

P.S. Another great opening! As we appreciate these posts, please give our thanks to your combo-changer-extraordinaire, Allison. :cool:

P.P.S. Maybe we should make/send her an extra wheel with a false gate, but no true gate, to install in your lock when you are off spinning elsewhere. Or a drive cam with a drop in deep enough to have contact points, but too shallow to allow the nose to drop enough for the lever to clear. That should give her some chuckles. :twisted:
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:51 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I usually take the locks completely apart to clean and lubricate everything before mounting them.
I purchased two locks for $30. But it was advertised as mix-matched pieces. Although the drive cam
looks like it's had several long converstions with multiple auto-dialers ...lol... the rest of the lock case
and all its' parts (lever, wheels, flys, etc.) look almost new. So I don't think the cam is original to the lock.

I will thank Ali for you. She'll like that. And don't go given her any ideas!! HA!

btw... I've lifted ALL boundries for her when setting a combo. Absolutely NO limits.
#'s can be on top of each other, 1 away from each other, in the forbidden zone, etc...
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:11 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Manipulation #9

SARGENT AND GREENLEAF R6700 Series
Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence



So some time ago, my parents were looking at safes. They made mention of a "4-wheel" lock at Lowes.
They said that they, nor any of the employees could open it. Naturally, you know I cannot resist! LOL
It's about a 1/2 hr drive for me... but whenever I was in town I'd stop by for a brief session with it.

Image

With each session I was careful not to wear out my welcome. But at the same time, I was not at all secretive
about my hobby & what I was doing there. Which was a good thing. It didn't seem to bother the employees,
and it actually produced some rather interesting conversations... which cut into my dialing time :/ lol.

Notice the bar they've placed that runs across the front of the safes? I thought this was just an extra precaution
to keep any of them from being pulled over. Turns out that parents had been putting their kids in them! Geez.
Can you imagine?! Not only an enormous liability for the store, but a possible death-trap for a small child.

Image

From the start, I was skeptical that this was actually a 4-wheel lock. Often times people will include the drop-in area
as a 4th wheel/digit. With my first inspection, I felt only 3 wheels pick up...and knew that's exactly what they'd done.

So during my first two sessions, I worked the dial as a 3-wheel lock.
By the end of round#2 I had cranked out two numbers for wheels 2 & 3
:???: - L50 1/2 - R28

All that's left was to run w1 around, while placing wheels 2 & 3 on their gates.
The lovely Alison had been very patient (really, how much can a girl do at Lowes?) lol...
so I decided I'd wrap this up and dial for the money when I returned for a 3rd and final session.


Image

Round#3: I ran the first wheel around every two increments, placing wheels 2 & 3 on their gates... nothing. :shock:
I began to wonder. It was about this time that an employee walked by & told me he has this safe at home for his guns.
He proceeded to tell me that it was a 4-wheel lock :/ I explained the drop-in area to him to be sure he wasn't including
it. He said "Nope, nope... you dial in 4 digits... then you turn it to open." Doubt crept in, and I began parking & picking up
wheels again to see if I had missed one. Don't ask me how (shakes his head lol) but I somehow convinced myself of 4-wheels.

I gave Alison some $ to hit some other stores... and I settled in for my longest session yet... to "supposedly" go 4-wheelin'. HA!
Round#3 cost me $66 LOL! Well worth it though. Alison went home lookin' cute and happy... and I went home a little confused.

Laying in bed later that night, curiosity got the best of me. I turned to Ali and asked what the fourth digit was... 87.
Son-of-a-bitch! That's approximately where the dial would stop when retracting the bolt. It WAS only a 3-wheel lock.
During the final phase (w1) I was dialing too fast and too sloppy.... probably missing the gate by a very slight margin.

ImageImage

I stopped by today and ran wheel one around again... along with my previously found gates on wheels 2 & 3.
Needless to say, I dialed with more precision this time. My findings were all sound... if I had just stuck with em.

OPEN: R52 - L50 1/2 - R28

I FINALLY allowed myself to look around to the side of the safe to see.....

Image


. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

Never again will Oldfast allow outside influence to corrupt his mind!!! lol
How many times do I have to learn this lesson the hard way?! Live n learn.

It was fun to crack a dial that was actually attached to a big-ass safe for a change,
rather than one just mounted on a board setting in front of me on my work bench.

There's plenty more S&Gs to be had... but I think it may be time to move
on and begin experiencing some other brands: ILCO Mosler DIBOLD LaGard
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:42 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

ROFL. Here I was prepared to believe you were going to tell us that it was because of that bar that you could not open the safe! :-P

Great job. Trust your feelings, Luke. Use the force.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks Gordon! After finally getting this one open, I hit some other stores that day too...
but nearly everything I see now is either keypad or direct entry. Where's the fun in that? lol

Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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