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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

mdc5150 wrote:Mike, those look just big enough to contain a pistol and knife. My guess from a past life would be that these were intended for use at a detention center where weapons are not allowed inside.

I was really curious about their intended use. Thanks for your thoughts Matt! That seems very likely I think.

Alta - you're right. Thanks for the encouragement. If he calls me up I'll definitely give it my best.
I really do feel like I should have a look over both locks. It has not been serviced in over 15 yrs.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Altashot

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Post Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:28 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:
mdc5150 wrote:Mike, those look just big enough to contain a pistol and knife. My guess from a past life would be that these were intended for use at a detention center where weapons are not allowed inside.

I was really curious about their intended use. Thanks for your thoughts Matt! That seems very likely I think.



The mounting holes on the back and the pull handle suggest that maybe it was meant to be mounted
on it's back with the door up, maybe in a drawer? Were a gun may be kept?

M.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:30 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

manipulation #26

Yale

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... hole change ... spring-loaded fence


Image

These are wee little locks that can sometimes pack quite a wallop. Normally found on small chests or strongboxes,
they're notoriously known for sloppy and inconsistent readings. This was evident after my first (and only) encounter
with one that pretty much kicked my ass for several days before finally opening it, lol. - Manipulation#3. So I was all
too excited to have one for the lockroom. So much so I ended up paying probably more than twice what I should've.


Image Image


Image


CONTACT AREA
Approximately 10 incs wide
LCP 73 . . . . . RCP 83

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pickup differences for wheels 3, 2, 1
5 .... 10 .... 15 .... respectively

READINGS
RIGHT contact point ONLY
...taken in tenths every 2 incs

BINDING ORDER
3 - 2 - 1
UNKNOWN COMBO
L74 - R19 - L46


My preferred AWR rotation reveals a gate, 52. Rather than pursue this gate just yet, I decided to run
an AWL graph as well. Not the best decision timewise, but I was curious if it might reveal another gate.

Image

Image

Not much more shows up. But the same gate does appear @ left 47 just as it did with right rotation @ 52.
A difference of exactly 5 incs - which correlates to wheel 3's pickup difference - a clue to the gate's owner.

I used isolation to verify this (you can see this included in my 2nd graph). Referring back to my AWR graph,
I chose a semi-low area (R20) to park wheels 1&2 at. Then ran w3 through the are of 47. No doubt remains.

:???: - :???: - L47

Although I've successfully tagged this gate to w3, I wanted to take a moment to hopefully get a discussion going;
High/Low testing when working with fixed drive pins! The large pickup differences they create is a game-changer.
I'm gonna attempt to explain the way I see it (and you might want a dial nearby!) lol
This may help some of you. It may confuse the hell out of others. But MOST of all
I'm hoping it will prompt some constructive criticism from some of you veterans.


Lets first take note of a couple things. Recall our pickup differences; w3=5.. w2=10.. w1=15
So if I park AWL @ our gate (47) then turned RIGHT picking up one wheel at a time;
w3 will pick up at 52. w2 picks up at 57. And w1 at 62. Just progressively add 5, ok?
So we've some #'s to remember: pickups 5, 10, 15. And our gate (+5) 47, 52, 57, 62.

Knowing this you'll see some problems occur with the traditional approach for testing.
A low test for example. Here we decide to 'throw' each wheel off by 5 increments.
So each wheel is tested by bringing it from the original gate at 47, down to 42.

L47 L47 R42
L47 R42 L47
R42 L47 L47

In actuality wheels have been displaced much more than just 5 incs. And progressively so with each wheel.
w3 was thrown 10 incs. w2 by 15 incs. And w1 a whopping 20 incs. Look at w3; we begin moving it when it
initially picks up at 52 (NOT 47). So by the time I bring it to 42, it's been pushed 10 incs off the gate. And at
the other end we have w1. Picks up at 62, way before reaching 47. Bring it to 42 and I've pushed it 20 incs.

Throwing the wheels by different amounts is no good for consistency. And, throwing them by
such large amounts could potentially place one on another gate, thoroughly diluting results.

The correct way, I think, to handle this while accounting for the drive pins would be:

AWL @ 47 . . . 83.2
L47 L47 R47 . . . . . 83.4
L47 R52 L47 . . . . . 83.3
R57 L47 L47 . . . . . 83.2

w3 picks up at 52. Continuing to 47 displaces it by 5 increments.
w2 picks up at 57. Continuing to 52 displaces it by 5 increments.
w1 picks up at 62. Continuing to 57 displaces it by 5 increments.

But again, this is just some of what I've been trying to work out. I'd love to hear some validation or criticism!



Enough on that. Lets see about hearing that fence drop in! And it happened much sooner than I expected.
:???: - :???: - L47
With a known gate for w3, I'm now ready to run 1&2 AR while placing 3 on its' gate of L47.

But BEFORE I commit to an entire rotation of readings, I take a good look over my first two graphs.
Is there ANY areas that are EVEN SLIGHTLY curious? If so, why not take a matter of seconds to explore them?!
If they materialize you've saved an enormous amount of time. If they don't (which is often the case), simply start
your full rotation, skipping any numbers or areas you've already tried. In this case... it paid off big... and quick.

Image
Image

I spot a couple areas worthy of my attention - at least briefly. Roughly 28-12 and 70-75.

Image

1&2 through the area of 20 brings about a definite gate. But which wheel?

:???: - R19 - L47

Rather than attempting to tag it, I tentatively assume it's w2
while I send w1 over to dance around in the 70's. BINGO

OPEN: L72 - R19 - L47

With little to no coaxing, the fence drops in at 72, 74, or 76.

Image


. .. ... ... ....Final Thoughts.... ... ... .. .

1
As far as the sloppy & inconsistent readings these locks are known for - I'm sure there's a variety of reasons.
Certainly one of the contributing factors is the square spindle that seats loosely in the drive cam. This leaves
a small amount of play between the two parts rather than being solidly connected like a spline key would do.

In order minimize the effect this would have, I tried to 'max out' its' limit of movement before taking a reading.
ie. I'd make one or two abrupt movements in the direction of my contact point (prior to reaching it of course),
then slowly approach the contact point and take a reading. Naturally this extra movement was not needed if
I was approaching the contact area with left rotation - I could just continue left in order to touch the right CP,
and assume the spindle has likely moved within the cam as much as it's going to. But whenever I dropped
into the contact area with right rotation and had to switch directions to hit the RCP, I would give it a couple
snappy movements before reading the RCP. This may not even be necessary! More experimenting to go.
2
One things for sure! This manipulation was insanely smooth in comparison to my encounter several years
ago with a similar lock. Of course, this lock is in stellar condition - thoroughly cleaned, lubed, and spinning
smooth and true. The other lock was in rough shape. Dirty, couple sticking points, and drag on one wheel.
3
And lastly, (if I haven't already made it abundantly clear, lol) I'm up for any talk you'd like to have about
fixed drive pins. And not necessarily just about hi/low testing, but ANYTHING to do with them and the
problems or advantages they can create. Honestly I still struggle with them a bit. But I love learning
and love trying to improve. This is certainly one area I need to work on more. So c'mon - fire away.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Hugo Martel

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

WOW!! i manipulated a cole wich looked like this last summer.... took me 10 minutes BY FEEL!!! I was my first atempt at it!!!

Hugo Martel :circlip:
Random wrote: Here is my tip of the day "Do not fart while wearing overalls".
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:14 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I'd imagine those are pretty much the same and can be just as tricky sometimes.

Nicely done!! 10 mins is making quick work of it. Feels good, eh?! Never gets old :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:43 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

mdc5150 wrote:
Oldfast wrote:
manipulation #24


Mosler Security Container
w/ Sargent Greenleaf 6700 Series


Wanted to share this recent $55 ebay purchase. The seller has MANY more if you're interested.
I'm not affiliated with the seller in any way. But really guys, this is a pretty damn good price I think.
Especially considering many sellers now seem to want that much (if not more!) for just the lock alone.

Seller's a registered government surplus buyer and has 90 of these. Some with S&G locks, some with ILCO.
The S&G's must go first (not sure why). He's currently listing them one at a time for a 'buy it now'. If you're
interested in multiples, message him with how many you want and he'll put up a separate listing for that.

Image

All I know is these containers were made for the US government and they came from the Immigration
and Naturalization Service (INS) - an agency of the U.S. Department of Justice from 1933 to 2003.
But what I'm really hoping is that someone will chime in and tell me more about these containers.

These things are sturdy, but so small. You can see it's only the width of the dial.
8 inches deep & 7 inches tall. There's two holes at the back for bolting it down,
which suggests they weren't for transporting. What would you put in these?!

Image

Had a fun authentic safe-crackin' session with this one :) My beautiful Alison did the un-boxing.
She spun it open it a couple times, then promptly hid the paperwork and removed the stickers.
A few days later, I could not fall asleep. So I got back up around 3 am and gave it a spin.

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

READINGS
RIGHT contact point ONLY
...taken in tenths every 2 increments

UNKNOWN COMBO
L19 - R4 - L33

If I were to create graphs to picture with this one, I'd imagine they'd be fairly
similar to some of the other S&G's I've posted. So I won't go there this time.

I will say though - I really struggled with this one for a bit. Why?.... no good reason really.
Sometimes it's just like that I guess. And I should know by now that it's never a good idea
to approach a lock thinking "I'm gonna blow through this one in 10 minutes!". Nevertheless,
I fell victim to this again, lol. Really, ya just never know how it's gonna go till ya start spinnin'.

OPEN R18 - L5 - R32.5



Mike, those look just big enough to contain a pistol and knife. My guess from a past life would be that these were intended for use at a detention center where weapons are not allowed inside.


They were used by either immigration or customs, forgot which. They kept them at their desk stations.

Don't know what they kept in them, but yes, they are large enough for a sidearm, knife, and a couple other doodads. Have one of them, too.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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femurat

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:32 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

First of all, If I haven't said it already, I love to read about your manipulations :mrgreen:

About the fixed pins, rotational conversion and differences in dialing, I have my method. I make no calculations, I just focus on dialing: same direction I found the gate on the wheel I'm going to test, opposite direction for the other wheels. This eliminates the problem, doesn't it? :hammering:

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:44 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Appreciate you guys all chiming in on this. It's nice to be able to envision where these were.
So from Matt, Altashot, and Gordon... the setting for these is certainly in, on or around a desk.
And as Altashot eluded to, it's quite possible they were actually mounted in a drawer maybe.
What they contained is up for debate... but the size suggests a firearm. Makes sense to me.

I purchased a second one awhile ago btw. So I have one with an S&G and one with an Ilco.
The dial on the Ilco is a cute little bugger, and has a P67 lock. I'm itching to give it a spin.
But I had to scratch the itch for this Yale first, lol. The Ilco will show up here soon though.

Also worth mention for anyone that might be considering one of these - the seller's legit.
This second one was actually damaged during shipping. He immediately sent me a new
dial and handle (which I didn't ask for nor was I expecting). He had packaged it well on
his end, so decided to reimburse him for half the shipping on the additional parts. In my
opinion, we BOTH take the same risk when it comes to the postal service. It only seems
right we split the risk down the middle. Only cost each of us about $3. We're both happy.

And hey, if you buy 2... you have yourself a perfect set of bookends for the living room :D

femurat wrote:First of all, If I haven't said it already, I love to read about your manipulations :mrgreen:

About the fixed pins, rotational conversion and differences in dialing, I have my method. I make no calculations, I just focus on dialing: same direction I found the gate on the wheel I'm going to test, opposite direction for the other wheels. This eliminates the problem, doesn't it? :hammering:

Thank you my friend! Always a pleasure to have you take a look.

So I'm setting here with my dial trying to wrap my head around what you've said.
But I'm not sure I'm understanding. Would this be what you're doing then?

R47 R47 L47 . . . 83.2
R47 L47 R47 . . . 83.4
L47 R47 R47 . . . 83.5

Dialing all wheels to 47, using direction & drive pins to do the work of throwing the wheels for you.
And you're looking for a GOOD reading rather than one that goes bad. You can see this test does
indicate w3. Is this what you're doing, or am I way off?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:33 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:
femurat wrote:First of all, If I haven't said it already, I love to read about your manipulations :mrgreen:

About the fixed pins, rotational conversion and differences in dialing, I have my method. I make no calculations, I just focus on dialing: same direction I found the gate on the wheel I'm going to test, opposite direction for the other wheels. This eliminates the problem, doesn't it? :hammering:

Thank you my friend! Always a pleasure to have you take a look.

So I'm setting here with my dial trying to wrap my head around what you've said.
But I'm not sure I'm understanding. Would this be what you're doing then?

R47 R47 L47 . . . 83.2
R47 L47 R47 . . . 83.4
L47 R47 R47 . . . 83.5

Dialing all wheels to 47, using direction & drive pins to do the work of throwing the wheels for you.
And you're looking for a GOOD reading rather than one that goes bad. You can see this test does
indicate w3. Is this what you're doing, or am I way off?


Thanks for spinning for me :-)

That's not what I meant to say. Sorry I was not clear.

Let's say I did an AWL graph and found a possible gate at L 47.
If it's our usual S&G 6730 with normal working flies, I dial all the wheels I'm testing the gate at L 47 and then move away one wheel, always to the RIGHT, about 10 increments, to see if it ruin my little nice low area. So my dialing for the high test (and I guess your is the same) would be simple as this

L47 L47 R57
L47 R57 L47
R57 L47 L47

This doesn't eliminate the problem you were talking about. Your concern is about a fixed pin that would move away the second wheel more than the first one and less than the third one. You're right.
I think it doesn't make a difference because every time you move away a wheel, if it was the one with the gate, will indicate, no matter how much you move it.
But if it makes you feel better you could either calculate the offset number, and dial it to the Right, or simply dial it to the Left, without having to calculate anything.
So your test numbers would be

L47 L47 L57
L47 L57 L47
L57 L47 L47

I'm sort of kidding you, but I'm serious in theory.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:24 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

femurat wrote:.....I'm sort of kidding you, but I'm serious in theory.

Hahaaa! Well, I AM an easy target, I know :D Mr.Technical here. lol
For sure, I'm notorious for complicating shit. But I do it well, eh?! HA!

Really do appreciate your thoughts here & I'll continue working thru them on the dial.
Dialing all wheels from the same direction may very well be one of ways to go here.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:35 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I actually did it more than once, when in doubt. I never calculate rotational conversion. I think it's more accurate to find the gate center from the opposite direction by making the five readings it takes. But that's just me maybe.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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Korver15

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Post Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

After reading almost all of this, I really wish I had more time to learn how to do safe manipulation. Really really cool how you documented this oldfast. This post is in my opinion better than a book! Keep up the good work
A wise man once told me I was a unique person. Just like everyone else. Korver15 Channel
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:17 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks Korver!

Been quite a journey! And you've seen it from the very start. Props to you for reading that much! lol

For me, it can be really time consuming to document & post just one manipulation. But out of every
dozen or so spins I have, I've tried to post at least one of them. They're not necessarily structured to
learn manipulation. But, if you understand the basic fundamentals of manipulation, then viewing the
chronicles can certainly be educational. At the very least there's some nice gut-shots to be had here
(if you're working on a particular lock and wondering what's on the other side of the door).

Also, the few spinning vids I have up; I've had some pm's from people discouraged after watching em.
These are certainly geared more towards entertainment than educational. Opening times like those are
rare (at least for me). People should realize, I video taped quite a number of my spin session, but very
'SELECTIVELY' posted ONLY the quickest ones. A more average time for me would be 20-40 minutes.
And some are still an hour or more! But who's gonna wanna watch someone spin for a half hour?! lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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sheerluck

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Post Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oh dear.

Now I not only read this entire thread and the Blaze article, but have started on the National Locksmith's guide and am hungrily browsing ebay... What is happening?! Help!
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:21 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

sheerluck wrote:Oh dear.

Now I not only read this entire thread and the Blaze article, but have started on the National Locksmith's guide and am hungrily browsing ebay... What is happening?! Help!



You are feeling very sleepy. The Manipulation Vortex draws you deeper, spinning you around and around like the dial on a safe lock. You can not resist the power of the Manipulation Vortex. It will draw you in. You will be assimilated. Manipulation will become your new God.

:mrgreen:

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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