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Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

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fgarci03

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Post Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

NICE!
You sure got into it faster than me!

I like the idea of sweeping the lock in 10 increments just to map the general area and see the shadowing effect.

I'm not sure about this, but let's assume the gates where really "deep" and these where just low areas. We can go on parking the wheels on the low spots continually, going deeper and deeper untill a gate reveals itself right?


Congrats for the job! And that dial is beautifull!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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mastersmith

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Post Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast, I am going to take a little trip "off topic" because of your wonderful pictures! Anyone that is going to be servicing safe locks pay attention to the condition of these lock examples. There is not a massive amount of lubrication in these locks. They are designed to be clean and nearly DRY. A light film of lubricant on the post that the wheels rotate on is the limit of the lube these locks require. Over-lurication can actually impede the locks ability to function. Thanks...we now return you to your regularly schedualed programming.....
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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GWiens2001

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Post Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:21 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast, that is some great deductions. Came to similar conclusions on graphing with the Diebold lock, but did not break it down 'scientifically' as you did. (Whether you did so using somebody else's idea is irrelevant). You can bet next time I will be doing so! Thank you so much for posting your graphs of this opening so others can learn from them.

One thing I noticed with the Diebold is that the gates are just to the right of the high point of each wheel. So there may be a possibility of missing the gate. But if you find the high points, knowing that the gates are to the right of that high point, can give you a place to start checking. Did you find the same thing with your Diebold?

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thanks for always taking a look, staying involved, and offering your thoughts guys. I value it very much.
I'm sorry for the delayed responses. Been going through some rough times for a few days. I may be a little
off topic here... but I wanna say: This hobby/passion/obSESSION has been a truly wonderful thing for me
over the past couple years. And all of you have helped me enjoy it far more than I ever could have alone.

Admitedly, I've taken it too far at times and it becomes unhealthy. But for the MOST part... it really helps me
stay sane & centered. It's really only one of a couple things I have in my life that allows me to just take a step
away from everything & everyone for a time. There's just something about setting down in the lockroom...
just me and a mechanism. That 'flow' starts up, my mind is absolutely consumed with the task at hand,
and it's literally impossible for my brain to wander off into useless, unproductive thoughts.

fgarci03 wrote:I'm not sure about this, but let's assume the gates where really "deep" and these where just low areas. We can go on parking the wheels on the low spots continually, going deeper and deeper untill a gate reveals itself right?
You got it Filipe... that's the idea anyway. But as we all know, it always seems so simple & quick in theory, lol.
This particular manipulation is probably not the best example, considering the gates were found fairly quick.
I have a feeling it will prove more difficult as I test this with other combos and other locks like my La Gard.

fgarci03 wrote:Congrats for the job! And that dial is beautifull!
You know, I meant to add a little BLOOPERS Section at the end of this one, haha! Notice in the last picture
how clean the dial is? Not even black increments and numbers? Well, that's cuz I accidentally washed them
right off :/ lol. On my behalf though, this company seemed to go a little cheap. The paint really wasn't paint.
It was more like rubber. It reminded me more of spray on Plasti-Dip. By the time I realized some of it had come
off in places, I figured I might as well go all the way. But yeah, I really do like the overall look of how the dial and
mount turned out on this one. And that little spy-proof portion turns completely black when viewed from an angle.




mastersmith wrote:Oldfast, I am going to take a little trip "off topic" because of your wonderful pictures! Anyone that is going to be servicing safe locks pay attention to the condition of these lock examples. There is not a massive amount of lubrication in these locks. They are designed to be clean and nearly DRY. A light film of lubricant on the post that the wheels rotate on is the limit of the lube these locks require. Over-lurication can actually impede the locks ability to function. Thanks...we now return you to your regularly schedualed programming.....
Thanks Mastersmith. In the past, when I've asked about where to lubricate and what to lubricate with... I received no answers.
So it's good to have some reassurance that I'm at least somewhat on the right track. Before mounting each lock, I disassemble,
degrease EVERYTHING, and use Brasso where applicable (wheels, lever, spacers, etc.). All pieces are thoroughly rinsed & dried.
I then reassemble, while using Tri-Flow. I know there's a very specific type of grease recommended, but considering my locks
are not 'in use', I figured Tri-Flow is just fine. Lubrication points: wheel post, flies, spacing washers, lever bushing, & bolt.

Some of the used locks I've purchased are filled with massive amounts of shit and grease, lol. So my little ritual can sometimes
bring about quite a beautiful transformation (both in looks and function). And as you said, only a LIGHT film of lube is required.




GWiens2001 wrote:....One thing I noticed with the Diebold is that the gates are just to the right of the high point of each wheel. So there may be a possibility of missing the gate. But if you find the high points, knowing that the gates are to the right of that high point, can give you a place to start checking. Did you find the same thing with your Diebold?
To be honest, it sounds like you've become more familiar with that Diebold than I have with mine at this point.
You could take a look back at my graph in manipulation #11... but I wouldn't really base much off from that.
It was a big clusterfuck really, lol. When I said "I think I'm about ready to put this one behind me for now"....
I meant it! lol. I've not had a go at that one in a while. I'll eventually pick it back up though.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:07 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

manipulation #15


rench
4000 Series

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

Image

A 40+ yr old company based in Argentina, specializing in the manufacturing of high security mechanisms.
Rench caters to safe and vault manufacturers, banks, private enterprises and Government Institutions.
Before this ebay purchase I'd never even heard of this company. Here's their site if you're interested.

ImageImage



Image

The wheels are fairly standard, but do vary somewhat in regards to the moveable flys and fixed drive pins.
The two-sided tab on the ring is dual purpose. One tab works as a fly, making contact with the drive pin on
the adjacent wheel. While the other tab couples with the slot, creating a boundary for the flys' movement.

btw, Alison informed me that this enchanting little set-up would NOT be a romantic way to propose. lol

Image



Image

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 10 incs wide
LCP 10 . . . . . RCP 20

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
3/10 .... 7/10 .... 1 2/10 .... respectively



So, this one revealed a gate to me before I even began, LOL! I could clearly feel it within the contact area.

As we all know... when the drive cam's gate passes under the lever nose, it allows the fence to temporarily
drop and ride the wheel pack. Within this brief contact with the wheel pack I was actually able to detect
a gate. Surely due to the sloppiness of the lock. You'll see as I continue, that the gates are like cliffs.

With an AWL rotation: The fence would drop off the LCP (10) and down into the drive cam gate.
An additonal drop could be felt and heard at 16. Then the fence would ride back up at 20 (RCP)

With an AWR rotation: The fence would drop into the drive cam gate at 20 (RCP), then come to a
stiff stop at 15. Then, the fence would ride back out of the contact area as I approached 10 (LCP)

What I was feeling was the left edge of a gate.... but on which wheel is it? Lets find out...
I parked AWR @ zero. Switched directions, picked up w3 at zero, and brought it through the CA- nothing.
Continued around again to pick up w2. Now carring both wheels 2 and 3, I went through the CA again.
This time the additional 'drop & click' at 16 was there. So I now know the gate I felt is on wheel 2.

There's not an enormous need really to graph this out. But just to show you,
I brought all wheels through the contact area, reading both right & left CP's.

Image
In addition to the sloppy tolerances, the gates are really quite wide.
In this case, choosing 17 or 18 would've been more than a safe bet.

:???: - R17 - :???:

Having gotten a taste of this lock's tolerances and gate widths, I can now see there's no need
to take a reading every 2 increments. Nor do I have to take readings in tenths rather than eighths.
So from here on, I take a reading every 2.5, but I stick with the division of tenths. I've recently made
the transition of breaking an increment down into tenths and wanted the practice. So I continued with it.


So where shall I go from here?
Naturally, the path of least resistance! Wheel 3 :D
Parking wheels 1 & 2 at R17..... I run wheel 3 around left.

Image

An enormous 2,000 mile drop lays waste to a spacious gate. 97? 98? 99?! Choose your flavor. lol

:???: - R17 - L98


w1 around every 2 incs while placing wheels 2 & 3 on their known gates.... until

OPEN: L64 - R17 - L98



Image

. . . . . . . . . CONCLUSIONS . . . . . . . . .

Very weak, this one was :yoda: ...smiley option that does not yet exist... hint, hint Xeo

Move along, I must. Clean and mount my next victim, I will.

:mrgreen:
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Libertyclicks

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Post Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:46 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Well played OldFast, well played. I want to get back in the game, start remembering some of these skills. Ah well, winter is coming, and that's my time.

Sounds like this brand would be a good lock to start with if one were learning manip.
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mseifert

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Post Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:45 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Just ran across this thread today .. Awesome work .. A true Master of a dying art .. I look forward to more.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

mseifert wrote:Just ran across this thread today .. Awesome work .. A true Master of a dying art .. I look forward to more.
Thank you, and welcome to the site! I've ALOT to learn & LONG way to go....
but I ABSOLUTELY love it, and love slowly learning and working to get better.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Thank you sir... and VERY nice to see ya :)

Libertyclicks wrote:I want to get back in the game, start remembering some of these skills. Ah well, winter is coming, and that's my time.
Same here! I LooooOOOooove winter!! Any other time of year just doesn't
afford me as much time as I'd like to be around this wonderful place.


Libertyclicks wrote:Sounds like this brand would be a good lock to start with if one were learning manip.
I agree. The definitive gates, along with the crisp contact points, would make for a great learning tool.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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fgarci03

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Post Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:47 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:So, this one revealed a gate to me before I even began, LOL!

Oldfast wrote:An enormous 2,000 mile drop lays waste to a spacious gate. 97? 98? 99?! Choose your flavor. lol

These ones... These ones cracked me up! :mrgreen:


Beautifull lock, great pictures and explanations, as always! You managed to turn a simple easy lock into a story full of suspense with a happy ending lol
Thanks you for sharing this experience Mike!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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femurat

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Post Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:57 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

I opened one lock that had a gate in the contact points area... It was not a nice experience as yours. I was unprepared and got confused by that strange dragging I felt. I was unable to use it at my advantage as you did. When I realized that it was a gate, I felt dumb: the lock opened so unexpectedly that I thought I broke it.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:16 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

fgarci03 wrote:
Oldfast wrote:So, this one revealed a gate to me before I even began, LOL!

Oldfast wrote:An enormous 2,000 mile drop lays waste to a spacious gate. 97? 98? 99?! Choose your flavor. lol

These ones... These ones cracked me up! :mrgreen:

Beautifull lock, great pictures and explanations, as always! You managed to turn a simple easy lock into a story full of suspense with a happy ending lol
Thanks you for sharing this experience Mike!

haha! right?! And thank YOU for always following along. I enjoy documenting my progress, each new lock,
and the journey each one brings me. And, it's always really nice to have some company along the way :)
Manipulation #16 comin' soon Filipe! Pictures are all uploaded.... just need to put some words to it.




femurat wrote:I opened one lock that had a gate in the contact points area... It was not a nice experience as yours. I was unprepared and got confused by that strange dragging I felt. I was unable to use it at my advantage as you did. When I realized that it was a gate, I felt dumb: the lock opened so unexpectedly that I thought I broke it.

lol... ya know, I can SO see that happening to me! And it probably WOULD HAVE, but I had some time to think it over.

I had gotten up in the morning, and had just a quick sec before going to work. I spun the dial just long enough to
figure contact points & pick-up differences, then took off. I was mowing on the rider for most of the day and had
plenty of time to ponder over it, lol. By the time rench and I met again, I was pretty well convinced the addtional
click within the contact area was a gate. Usually my first thought on the rider is, I should mow this grass for free.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:01 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

manipulation #16


Mosler
302-402

Group2 ... 3 wheel ... key change ... spring loaded fence

ImageImage

At this point, I've now experienced a small handful of various brands, including....
Sargent & Greenleaf, Yale, Diebold, LaGard, Ilco Unican, LeFebure, VanGuard, and Rench.

So I'm looking to expand this list. Imparticular, I've really been gunning for a Mosler.
You may have seen the breakdown I recently posted on this one. I found it to be a little
beyond me for now. So it's currently setting pretty in my collection while I focus on this one.
This particular model though, has standard wheels and does not feature Mosler's shutter driver.

Image

Mosler uses a double-pronged spline key to securely join the drive cam and spindle as one solid unit.

Also typical for Mosler is the friction plug: a spring loaded circular delrin piece within the wheel post.
It applies constant pressure to the spline/cam/spindle assembly to insure smooth and proper function.
In addition, I find it really slows down my spinning and also dampens feedback within the contact area.

And one last note... the fence looks to be more or less a roll pin of sorts. First I've seen of one like this.



Image
...and in a very large world... a small stack of joy



Image
flip-sided wheel view



As always, I begin the manipulation by first gathering some standard info.

CONTACT AREA
Approximately 11 incs wide
LCP 93 . . . . . RCP 4

ROTATIONAL CONVERSION
pick-up differences for wheels 3, 2, 1 were:
.2 .... .6 .... 1.2 .... respectively



My preferences seem to constantly change, but lately I've been using a right rotation.
Mainly due to the speed and ease of dialing it seems to offer me, opposed to left rotation.

I prefer to map every 2 intervals, and my readings are now taken within one tenth of an inc.

Image

A profile of the wheel pack as a whole is created, and two clearly defined gates appear at 18.5 and 50.

In this case there exists a "most likely" scenario. Given the tendency of many locks, there's a good possibility
that the most definitive gate (50) is w3, and the other (18.5) belongs to w2. Obviously, we can't simply assume
this. But if we have to explore all possibilities.... we might as well begin our search in the most likely of places.

I tag gates to wheels through isolation. All this means is that I'm running a single wheel through the area
in question to see if the gate indication occurs. If it does, I know absolutely that it belongs to that wheel.
There's no need for a reading at every increment as I've done here... but it helps to illustrate what I seen.

Image
One graph containing two different isolations.

First, look at the one on the right: 1+2 @ R18.5 ..... 3AL
Or, maybe easier for you to visualize... R18.5 - R18.5 - AL
I park wheels 1 and 2 at the other gate indication (18.5), hoping this will allow
the fence to rest predominantly on wheel 3 as I run it through the area of 50.
The gate appears (with even greater rate of change than in the initial graph).
Without reservation, I tag the gate at 50 to wheel 3.

Turning our attention to w2 (next likely wheel to read after w3)
Could our other gate indication at 18.5 belong to wheel 2?
Again, I use isolation to answer this question: 1@R50...2AR...3@L50.2
And again, maybe easier to visualize it this way: R50 - AR - L50.2
The drop occurs and I can undoubtedly tag it with wheel 2.

:???: - R18.5 - L50.2

And we all know what happens once
2 of 3 gates have been discovered.....

game over :twisted:

OPEN: L82 - R18.5 - L50.2

Image

. . . . . . . . . . QUESTIONS . . . . . . . . . .

I was hoping someone would take a moment to 'school' me a bit.
I'd like to gain a better understanding of Moslers' identification system.
What does each of these series of letters and/or numbers elude to?

Here on the back of the lock body is an eight digit number.
Image

Pressed into the lock's cover plate is "302-402".
Image
And on the tag, another two sets of distinct codes:
No. 479321
BP-216
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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fgarci03

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Post Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:49 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Oldfast wrote:First, look at the one on the right: 1+2 @ R18.5 ..... 3AL
Or, maybe easier for you to visualize... R18.5 - R18.5 - AL
I park wheels 1 and 2 at the other gate indication (18.5), hoping this will allow
the fence to rest predominantly on wheel 3 as I run it through the area of 50.
The gate appears (with even greater rate of change than in the initial graph).
Without reservation, I tag the gate at 50 to wheel 3.

Turning our attention to w2 (next likely wheel to read after w3)
Could our other gate indication at 18.5 belong to wheel 2?
Again, I use isolation to answer this question: 1@R50...2AR...3@L50.2
And again, maybe easier to visualize it this way: R50 - AR - L50.2
The drop occurs and I can undoubtedly tag it with wheel 2.

Just... Beautifull!!! :hbg:

I really like the way you go into the psycology of these locks. What is more likely to be hapening, or the wheel that is indicating, and going from there.
Thanks for another beautiful manipulation!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:01 am

Re: Oldfast: Safe Chronicles

Filipe! Thank you, as always :) Have you been spinnin' much lately?

On a sidenote: I had no change key for the rench, but found a slighly modified S&G key to work just fine.
I also have no change key for the Mosler. Putting in a random unknown combo can still be done... it's just
a little more tedious, lol. I'd eventually love to purchase a Keedex! But man, they're kind of expensive :???:

Also....
Oldfast wrote:I was hoping someone would take a moment to 'school' me a bit.
I'd like to gain a better understanding of Moslers' identification system.
What does each of these series of letters and/or numbers elude to?

I'm rather surprised no one has jumped on this yet. I'll bet Squelchtone may have an answer for us...
and I have a feeling it'll consist of more than one line, lol. But I'd imagine he's usually quite busy on
'the other side'. Just the fact that he stops over this way when he can though is pretty cool of him.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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