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Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:02 amby Oldfast
Interesting read.... thanks!
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:04 pmby Capt_Tom
Interesting article... BUT, Phosgene gas (PG) was used in WWI for its ability to stay LOW to the ground and roll down into the trenches. It did just that... It stayed very close to the ground.
While someone somewhere may have had some mad idea to use PG in a safe, he would have to get it packaged. No company is going to make just a few, as the expense is too great to set up vial filling processes. And for effectiveness, ... unless the safecracker was laying on the floor, or close to it, (less than 12") He could deal with PG. As long as he didn't stir it up to his face (He could certainly see it). Tear gas,(CN) on the other hand is colorless and immediately seeking to equalize itself with all of the molecules of air in the room. That was far more effective, and most likely the chemical in those vials, and is certainly what was in the ones that hit my floor!
I was USMC EOD/NBC tech (Bomb Disposal) and (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical).
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:23 amby gloves
Capt_Tom wrote:Interesting article... BUT, Phosgene gas (PG) was used in WWI for its ability to stay LOW to the ground and roll down into the trenches. It did just that... It stayed very close to the ground.
While someone somewhere may have had some mad idea to use PG in a safe, he would have to get it packaged. No company is going to make just a few, as the expense is too great to set up vial filling processes. And for effectiveness, ... unless the safecracker was laying on the floor, or close to it, (less than 12") He could deal with PG. As long as he didn't stir it up to his face (He could certainly see it). Tear gas,(CN) on the other hand is colorless and immediately seeking to equalize itself with all of the molecules of air in the room. That was far more effective, and most likely the chemical in those vials, and is certainly what was in the ones that hit my floor!
I was USMC EOD/NBC tech (Bomb Disposal) and (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical).
Sorry but I have to disagree with your view of things. Phosgene boils at 8.3°C, which is most likely colder than any non-refrigerated safe, so while it may have been bottled in cold (and hence liquid) form for convenience, it is liquid at any temperature hotter than that just because of the pressure inside the vial.
So if you were to drill or break one such vial, it'd istantly leak in gaseous state and spray violently due to phase shift.
Cheers
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:12 pmby Capt_Tom
This is from the CDC, and is basically what I was taught....( I did mistakenly abbreviate it as PG..... it is CG... long time ago!)
Facts About Phosgene
What phosgene is
Phosgene is a major industrial chemical used to make plastics and pesticides.
At room temperature (70°F), phosgene is a poisonous gas.
With cooling and pressure, phosgene gas can be converted into a liquid so that it can be shipped and stored. When liquid phosgene is released, it quickly turns into a gas that stays close to the ground and spreads rapidly.
Phosgene gas may appear colorless or as a white to pale yellow cloud. At low concentrations, it has a pleasant odor of newly mown hay or green corn, but its odor may not be noticed by all people exposed. At high concentrations, the odor may be strong and unpleasant.
Phosgene itself is nonflammable (not easily ignited and burned).
Phosgene is also known by its military designation, “CG.”
Where phosgene is found and how it is used
Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking (pulmonary) agent. Among the chemicals used in the war, phosgene was responsible for the large majority of deaths.
Phosgene is not found naturally in the environment.
Phosgene is used in industry to produce many other chemicals such as pesticides.
Phosgene can be formed when chlorinated hydrocarbon compounds are exposed to high temperatures. Chlorinated hydrocarbon compounds are substances sometimes used or created in industry that contain the elements chlorine, hydrogen, and carbon.
The vapors of chlorinated solvents exposed to high temperatures have been known to produce phosgene. Chlorinated solvents are chlorine-containing chemicals that are typically used in industrial processes to dissolve or clean other materials, such as in paint stripping, metal cleaning, and dry cleaning.
Phosgene gas is heavier than air, so it would be more likely found in low-lying areas.
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:40 pmby GWiens2001
I won't go into details, but it is very easily made from a very common chemical. It is non-flamible because it has already been processed through heat, or by flame. It was also known as mustard gas during the World War I, as I remember.
Gordon
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:25 pmby Squelchtone
I believe that phosgene was suggested by someone in that article, perhaps a local cop or some hazmat guy, then the local locksmith came in and said it was tear gas. So before we pick up the ball and run with it, I still think those vials were tear gas and not phosgene as the local bomb squad hazmat guy thought.
""I can pretty much tell you it's phosgene," said Curry, who works with Capital Region Forensic Hazardous Materials Team."
"But the two men -- who have worked together in the past -- disagree sharply about what was contained inside the ampoules.
LaBarge said he's sure the liquid is nothing more than a noxious, but not deadly, form of tear gas. LaBarge, owner of LaBarge Lock and Safe Technicians, said he's helped law enforcement bomb technicians debunk urban legends about safe booby traps"
have a good evening everybody,
Squelchtone
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:34 amby kilby
GWiens2001 wrote:I won't go into details, but it is very easily made from a very common chemical. It is non-flamible because it has already been processed through heat, or by flame. It was also known as mustard gas during the World War I, as I remember.
Gordon
Hate to disagree like this on my first posting but Phosgene and mustard gas are not the same and was never known as Mustard gas in WW1
Phosgene causes suffocation whereas Mustard gas causes chemical burns (and the death can be via the burns or (essentially) drowning)
From the 1st page in the thread chlorine is also NOT Mustard gas it's straight Cl from your periodic table (hence water treatment works are heavily secured where the Cl is stored)
I apologize if I appear to be being pedantic but my grandfather was gassed twice during WW1 and it mattered to me a lot when I was young.
As for safe breaking boobytraps, I'm actually quite surprised that I have heard no mention of Smartwater being used to 'tag' potential safebreakers (it's becoming more common than dye packs in cash boxes within the UK)
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:18 pmby GWiens2001
Kilby,
Thank you for the clarification. I was trying to remember classes from long ago, and have mixed up my gases.
However, I did check up on phosgene, and it is readily made.
I am glad that your grandfather lived to pass on his experiences to you. Our lives would not be as rich without the stories passed down from generation to generation.
Gordon
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:31 pmby huxleypig
kilby wrote:GWiens2001 wrote:I won't go into details, but it is very easily made from a very common chemical. It is non-flamible because it has already been processed through heat, or by flame. It was also known as mustard gas during the World War I, as I remember.
Gordon
Hate to disagree like this on my first posting but Phosgene and mustard gas are not the same and was never known as Mustard gas in WW1
Phosgene causes suffocation whereas Mustard gas causes chemical burns (and the death can be via the burns or (essentially) drowning)
From the 1st page in the thread chlorine is also NOT Mustard gas it's straight Cl from your periodic table (hence water treatment works are heavily secured where the Cl is stored)
I apologize if I appear to be being pedantic but my grandfather was gassed twice during WW1 and it mattered to me a lot when I was young.
As for safe breaking boobytraps, I'm actually quite surprised that I have heard no mention of Smartwater being used to 'tag' potential safebreakers (it's becoming more common than dye packs in cash boxes within the UK)
Handy for catching anyone who tries to crack a safe but it won't do anything to stop the thief from taking all that lovely safe booty! Anyway, I'd guess that professional criminal safebreakers aren't the kind to end up in the local police station sitting under an ultra violet light!
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:15 amby kilby
GWiens2001 wrote:Kilby,
Thank you for the clarification. I was trying to remember classes from long ago, and have mixed up my gases.
However, I did check up on phosgene, and it is readily made.
I am glad that your grandfather lived to pass on his experiences to you. Our lives would not be as rich without the stories passed down from generation to generation.
Gordon
Sadly I never met him, but from what was passed down through the family and my anger at the treatment of his regiment I had to find out more.
Hi Huxley
There are many tear gasses with CR being especially bad (death from asphyxiation ) when used in enclosed spaces (that's the crap that they used in Egypt ) you could find yourself locked up these days
It was probably CR that was in the safes as it was also the active constituent of Mace, and having bought some in Italy in the 70s (in a joke shop of all places) I can say it's entertaining (and can clear a party in a very short time), it's a bit more toxic than CS gas
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:24 pmby Squelchtone
Here's a Mosler safe on ebay and you can see one of these devices attached over the wheel pack cover of the hand change lock:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261175944183Squelchtone
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:50 pmby Riyame
Nice find Squelch! Wonder if they are still whole or not considering they say the lock is missing.
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:48 pmby Squelchtone
Riyame wrote:Nice find Squelch! Wonder if they are still whole or not considering they say the lock is missing.
Only the interior door lock is missing, the exterior is still there. I emailed the seller to have him be careful, but I told him if safe doesnt sell, I would like him to pull the lock for me before he scraps it, and I'll pay him a good price his effort.
Squelchtone
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:13 pmby Capt_Tom
Here's a safe on e-bay with vial still attached...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Safe-Cabine ... 19c357e9dd
Re: Tear Gas in Safes Vaults.. Urban Legend or ???
Posted:
Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:04 pmby Capt_Tom
Old Herring Hall Marvin on Craigslist. The tear gas container is labeled.....
http://charleston.craigslist.org/for/3621574433.html
