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AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

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Ty_Bower

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:28 pm

AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

I recently came across an AMSEC CE1814. The owner had inherited the safe from the owner before him. No one has seen it open in over a decade. I was able to move the safe. It is quite heavy. The stairs were steep. Be careful should you ever choose to attempt a similar move.

I expect the lock is a Sargent & Greenleaf, model 6630. It behaves as if it has false gates on one or more wheels. The lever nose likely has the eccentric roller, which complicates study of the contact points. I am almost completely unable to find the left CP, and have given up trying. The right CP readings are inconsistent. One must read multiple times, and record either a min or a max reading.

The dial requires a delicate touch. The action is quite smooth, with little to no play. However, the nose roller will easily go past the CP with virtually no feedback. The dial and ring are shiny chrome, with black indices. It does not help me see the markings, and stray reflections from ambient lighting are a constant nuisance.

Despite the challenges, I've reassured myself the right CP *can* be felt. As long as a CP can be found, the wheel must be able to be traced. I've completed the graph of the first number. I am confident the third wheel in the pack is set to 50. I'll continue to work on the next number over the weekend.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

If you are confident that the last number is 50 ... Did you try 50-25-50?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Looking at your graph I think it looks to narrow for a gate. Also the only wheel types I know have 2, 3 and 5 false gates. 7 low spots is a bit much and 5 numbers apart is a bit to narrow.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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femurat

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Looks like you have quite a fun challenge in front of you! I wish I had one similar LOL

Log the lowest reading of each contact point. You check it multiple times and consider only the one where the roller is on its thinner side and the nose is deeper in the cam.

About the shiny dial, a sharpie or a light water based black matte paint may do the trick. Be careful not to make a mess. Once opened, you can remove the dial and clean it really well.

Even if 50 is not the correct number, it's a low spot so it will help you find gates on the other wheels. From your graph it do look like a gate. Keep us posted and remember, consistency is the key!

Cheers :)
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Ty_Bower

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:03 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

MartinHewitt wrote:Looking at your graph I think it looks to narrow for a gate. Also the only wheel types I know have 2, 3 and 5 false gates. 7 low spots is a bit much and 5 numbers apart is a bit to narrow.


Thank you for your comments. This is my very first manipulation. I am certain I've made mistakes in the first half of the graph. But, I am confident my skill is already improving. Perhaps the signature at 50 appears too narrow, but there is no doubt in my mind this location is deeper than any other on the dial. I'll continue down this path, until I reach an end. If it is a dead end, I'll start over from the beginning with a better touch.

Good tip to try 50-25-50. I'll give that a whirl.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:34 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

The 6630 is doable, but it is one of the most difficult doable locks. Be prepared that it will take a long time to get it open, but I can assure you, that it is an extremely good feeling when the door opens because of your own work. And this feeling is better with a more difficult lock.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Squelchtone

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:15 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Ty_Bower wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:Looking at your graph I think it looks to narrow for a gate. Also the only wheel types I know have 2, 3 and 5 false gates. 7 low spots is a bit much and 5 numbers apart is a bit to narrow.


Thank you for your comments. This is my very first manipulation. I am certain I've made mistakes in the first half of the graph. But, I am confident my skill is already improving. Perhaps the signature at 50 appears too narrow, but there is no doubt in my mind this location is deeper than any other on the dial. I'll continue down this path, until I reach an end. If it is a dead end, I'll start over from the beginning with a better touch.

Good tip to try 50-25-50. I'll give that a whirl.


or all wheels set to 50, I heard a lot of retired safes and vaults are set to 50-50-50.
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Werewolf

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:07 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Squelchtone wrote:or all wheels set to 50, I heard a lot of retired safes and vaults are set to 50-50-50.


Would it not open when doing AWL to 50 ?
I agree that the low spot on 50 looks a bit narrow. I would look at the low spot around 36.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:27 am

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Yes it would open on a AWL to 50.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Ty_Bower

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:53 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Werewolf wrote:
Squelchtone wrote:I heard a lot of retired safes and vaults are set to 50-50-50.


I would look at the low spot around 36.


I would not say this safe was retired. Widowed is probably a more accurate description.

I tried 50-50-50, and 50-25-50. Neither worked.

I considered 36, but if the false gates follow the "standard", then none of them align with anything on my chart.
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Ty_Bower

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:05 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Second graph is a hot mess. Not sure what to make of this one. I'll guess it is a standard two false gate wheel. Unclear which is real, and which is false.

Perhaps I should chart again, but keep both W2 and W3 at 50?

Good news is that I am beginning to be able to consistently find the left CP. It is around 88. The less good news is that it varies little in relation to wheel position, so I once again gave up on it.
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femurat

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Post Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:43 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

Moving two wheels confuses some people. That's why they suggest isolating a wheel. It means you just move one wheel at a time and are sure the indications are on that wheel.

I prefer moving all the wheels I can, but for now you can try moving just one... go for graph number three :mrgreen:
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Ty_Bower

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Post Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

I've made quite a few mistakes. This is all a new process for me, and I must learn as I go along.

After my first graph, I chose what I thought was a low point, and did a wheel test. Nobody noticed my test suggests the chosen number is on wheel 1, but I was firmly convinced I had identified wheel 3. Alas, I produced another graph with what is possibly an incorrect number, and certainly on the wrong wheel. This is how it goes when experience is lacking.

After some mild frustration, I've started over and graphed again AWL. Some numbers which had clearly appeared at first are now gone. Other numbers not seen before have now appeared. The roller on the nose is such a challenge with this lock. I am so frightened of rolling past the contact point, I think I sometimes fail to properly touch the CP at all. Other times I do go past the point without noticing. And in between, the eccentricity of the roller throws a lot of random noise into the graphs.

Here's my repeat graph of AWL. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. I may attempt to "average" the results of my first AWL graph with this one.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:58 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

So your first and your last graphs are AWLs, correct? They really do not have much in common. The hi/lo tests can show a lot of nonsense in this case. I would soon start to dial all wheels separately and optimize with best guesses each wheel on its own. You could try 1+2 around right and 3@L45.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:13 pm

Re: AMSEC CE1814 with S&G lock

And to make sure you are not running in the wrong direction. The left CP can be felt, when you turn the dial clockwise, and the right can be felt, when you turn counterclockwise. The LCP should be easier to feel and 4 is more towards the region, where I would expect the LCP.

Because it is a lock with false gates on the wheels there is a good chance you will be able to feel one or two between LCP and RCP.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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