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Group 1R Combination Locks

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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu May 07, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Oh, these plastic wheels seem to be dual change, i.e. key and mesh change.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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L4R3L2

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Post Thu May 07, 2020 7:42 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

That's funny, Mr. Hewitt!

mastersmith wrote:If you stuck the key in but forgot to turn it, you could still turn the dial! Who would do that you ask?


If the wheels slipped without being unlocked, the more likely scenario is that the combination shifted during use. I've heard drilling GSA containers can be a b***h.
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Topy

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Post Wed May 20, 2020 6:06 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

mastersmith wrote:When I was working a government contract LaGard came out with this first version of a Group 1 lock. It sucked! The wheels are in deed plastic and VERY fragile. A common problem I had with these was for the inner and outer wheels to move when the combination had not been changed. The really fine teeth did not hold the 2 sections very well. If you stuck the key in but forgot to turn it, you could still turn the dial! Who would do that you ask? Government employees (at least then) have to change their own combinations. Like all things, if you don't do it often memory fades. I put on probably 100 of these locks. I replaced every one of them. They were not made for the rigors of this world!


Ahh, that probably explains why there are not so many around then. How long ago were these first installed and when were they replaced would you say?

Cheers for the background!

MHM wrote:Never seen or even heard of it, best I could find on it was the auction site you got that initial photo from, plus a tantalisingly useless cutaway photo, plus this US Military handbook from 1989 which I'm picking you've already found?

https://pdfslide.net/documents/mil-hdbk-1013-08.html


Hey! No, I hadn't yet come across that handbook. I've seen a few like it but that's the first one with the LaGard specifically mentioned. Thanks :)
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MHM

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Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:42 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Damn you Topy, I've been mulling over Group 1R locks for weeks now since this thread got started.

My question is this: What was the Soviet Union using during the cold war, while NATO were using the Manifoil IV / 8400 / 8500? Did they have an equivalent? Did they take radiological and manipulative and over-the-shoulder attacks as seriously as the western governments did? Are there any Soviet locks of that period still around? Does anyone collect them? Are there any in Oliver Deiderichsen's book?

We all know that Eastern Bloc keyed mechanical locks of that period were...at best, rough. Their approach to both security and manufacturing were entirely different to ours and they often used weird mechanical solutions to design or functional problems that had long since been discarded in the west...and this is reflected in their tech. So does anyone know what did they did for combination locks?

MHM.
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L4R3L2

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Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:33 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

MHM wrote:Their approach to both security and manufacturing were entirely different to ours and they often used weird mechanical solutions to design or functional problems that had long since been discarded in the west...and this is reflected in their tech. So does anyone know what did they did for combination locks?

MHM.


The likely relied on threat of death as their first, and primary, layer of security.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:09 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

I don't know about government containers, but a bit about civilian safes in the GDR. They used a lot of pre-WWII stuff, but there are also two East German lock designs. One is the huge double-bitted lock which was used in the ATMs. The other is a combination lock BAB CS1 that was really a maze and most complicated to use. The link to the combination lock is down, but here is a list of GDR safes and photos of the key lock: https://www.tresorberater.de/ddr-tresor/ https://www.tresorberater.de/tresorschl ... s-der-ddr/ https://www.tresorberater.de/schweres-t ... uer-bombe/ . And a yt video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzL44lILaNQ .
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mercurial

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Post Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:35 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

It seems that Cold War Russian embassies used locally bought safes & placed a lockable cover over the keyhole (locking escutcheon) to provide an extra layer of security & something to provide visible signs of forced entry should these safes be attacked. The mechanism includes a combination lock that is dialled similarly to a Rosengrens CNAB-6 (but quite different mechanically) & a sophisticated key. If they were able to produce these for use in their embassies, I suspect they also used locks of similar quality & complexity within the USSR where they felt the need to do so.

Here are some links that contain discussion & video footage of these lockable escutcheons :
This one demonstrates the lock : https://blackbag.toool.nl/?p=31
The video footage in the above link is a WMV file, for those who cannot view them, the and video is here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rIt0nKnrT0E
There is more discussion & further disassembly of the lock here : https://blackbag.toool.nl/?p=166

I have seen very brief footage of similar locks out of Russia that had only the combination mechanism, without a key, in the same format as a locking escutcheon, too.

The lock shown in the above links looks well machined, and incorporates a combination mechanism, plus a key with both disc detainer and pin tumbler mechanisms!

I think it is safe to say that the USSR did make some fascinating and well made locks when they felt the need! Given only three examples of the lock shown in the videos above ever found their way into foreign hands, there may well be some other Soviet era locks that are thus far unknown to us.
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