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Group 1R Combination Locks

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Topy

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:58 am

Group 1R Combination Locks

Hello everyone,

I've recently started expanding my collection of safe locks and I've got a little side research project I'm working on at the moment.
I'm looking specifically at UL Group 1R combination locks/Locks designed specifically to be resistant to radiological attacks.

At the moment, I'm trying to get a list of as many locks that fall into this category as possible and I'd like help expanding the list of known examples (if anyone knows of any others I've missed).

S&G 6720 Group 1R
S&G 8560 Group 1R
S&G 8430 Group 1R
S&G 8435 Group 1R
S&G 8470 Group 1R

Mosler 300-400
Mosler 301-401
Mosler 302-402

LaGard 1980

Yale B30
Yale B40

These next few locks are lead shielded but are not technically UL 1R locks, I'm not actually sure what the classification is for them other than 'UK MoD approved'.
If anyone has any further examples of non-UL lead lined/plastic tumbler locks I'd love to know more!

Chubb Manifoil Mk III
Chubb Manifoil Mk IV
Chubb Manifoil Mk VIII - Restricted
Nato Mersey 14 Lever lock

If anyone has any of the LaGard or Yale locks and would like to trade. They're the main ones missing from my collection at this point and I'd definitely love to have an example of a LaGard and a Yale ;)

I'm still waiting on a bunch of these to be delivered but once I've got them all, expect a couple of threads! :)

(These locks were previously above, but I've moved them down as they aren't really Group 1R locks)
Mas-Hamilton X-07 (Electronic)
Mas-Hamilton x-08 (Electronic)
Kaba Mas x-09 (Electronic)
Kaba Mas x-10 (Electronic) - Restricted
S&G 2740B (Electronic) - Restricted
Last edited by Topy on Wed May 06, 2020 2:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

The only standard, which has a "Group 1R" is UL 768. UL 768 is only for mechanical combination locks. The UL for electronic combination locks is UL 2058. There seems to be a "Type 1". I suppose all electronic Type 1 locks are also resistant to radiological attacks. Then there are different government standards, e.g. FF-L-2740B.

The Group 1R Mosler locks are the MR-302 (mesh change, 3 wheels), MRK-302 (key change, 3 wheels), MR-402 (mesh change, 4 wheels) and MRK-402 (key change, 4 wheels), when fitted with plastic wheels.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Topy

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Thanks MartinHewitt!

Okay. So UL 768 is the overarching security rating and then the manipulation resistance is 'Group 1R'?
And FF-L-2740B currently only applies to the X-10 and 2740B is that correct? From what I can tell FF-L-2740B is for 'container security' while FF-L-2890C is for the same locks, just mounted on pedestrian doors?

I'd agree with the 'all electronic locks are radiation proof', but that doesn't make them Group 1/Manipulation resistant to whatever the rated by default right?

Thanks for clarifying the difference between the different Mosler's! Much appreciated! Does that mean there's a non-plastic wheel variant of each of those locks as well?

Any idea on the Mosler BP-800? I'd never seen nor heard of them until one popped up for sale a while back and it's marked as Group 1R...

Cheers!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:21 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Topy wrote:Okay. So UL 768 is the overarching security rating and then the manipulation resistance is 'Group 1R'?
And FF-L-2740B currently only applies to the X-10 and 2740B is that correct? From what I can tell FF-L-2740B is for 'container security' while FF-L-2890C is for the same locks, just mounted on pedestrian doors?

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Topy wrote:I'd agree with the 'all electronic locks are radiation proof', but that doesn't make them Group 1/Manipulation resistant to whatever the rated by default right?

Manipulation is a method to open mechanical locks. Electronic locks can have design flaws and implementation problems, but they can't be manipulated. Contrary to the mechanical locks the range of possible problems is in in electronic locks much larger. I know of no mechanical combination lock where I change the dial and can then open with the default combo, but there are cheap Chinese electronic safe locks where just that is possible.

Topy wrote:Thanks for clarifying the difference between the different Mosler's! Much appreciated! Does that mean there's a non-plastic wheel variant of each of those locks as well?

Yes, there are also Group 1 versions. They might all be key change.

Topy wrote:Any idea on the Mosler BP-800? I'd never seen nor heard of them until one popped up for sale a while back and it's marked as Group 1R...

The black 302/402 (at least the Group 1R) has a sticker on it which has at the bottom "BP-800". No idea what its meaning is.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Topy

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:47 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

The black 302/402 (at least the Group 1R) has a sticker on it which has at the bottom "BP-800". No idea what its meaning is.

I've attached a photo of the 'BP-800' (I hope it attached correctly!) Is that actually a Black 302/402 then?

Manipulation is a method to open mechanical locks. Electronic locks can have design flaws and implementation problems, but they can't be manipulated. Contrary to the mechanical locks the range of possible problems is in in electronic locks much larger. I know of no mechanical combination lock where I change the dial and can then open with the default combo, but there are cheap Chinese electronic safe locks where just that is possible.

Okay. So manipulation resistance applies only to mechanical locks, and nothing to do with electronic locks at all?
Therefore electronic locks are not 'Group 1 or Group 2' etc as that doesn't apply, rather they are FF-L-xxxx certified instead?

Makes sense! Thanks!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:05 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

If you peel of the 50-25-50 sticker you will see 302-402.

And as I wrote, there is a UL 2058 for electronic safe locks. Stickers always say "Type 1", which is from the perceived security level supposed to be equivalent to a "Group 1". The differences between a Type 2 (I assume there is this type) and a Type 1 are probably not that big that it makes any sense to get a Type 2 approved.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Topy

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Post Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:10 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

If you peel of the 50-25-50 sticker you will see 302-402.

Ah-hah! Mystery solved. I'm gonna edit the above post to remove the BP-800 'lock' then.

And as I wrote, there is a UL 2058 for electronic safe locks. Stickers always say "Type 1", which is from the perceived security level supposed to be equivalent to a "Group 1". The differences between a Type 2 (I assume there is this type) and a Type 1 are probably not that big that it makes any sense to get a Type 2 approved.
:oops: Got it!

Thanks heaps!
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L4R3L2

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Post Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:42 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

From what I understand, there is only a Type 1 rating for electronic locks. The rating has more to do with durability and reliability, with manipulation resistance achieved by requiring the combination processing to be on the inside of the security container. Group 1 and Type 1 are not synonymous or relative with each other in any way.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:04 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

UL 768 has two kinds, UL 437 (key locks) has two kinds, these are handled similar (e.g. 20 hours manipulation resistance for level 1) and in the requirements of safe standards around the world has lock requirements according to their level. In UL 2058 is a level 1 (printed on locks) and because of the similarity to the other standards I assume there is also a level 2. Perhaps level 2 has just 4 or 5 digits instead of the 6. Perhaps it has a few test requirements less. But this all is just a guess. I don't have UL 2058 and the index doesn't show any level information.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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madsamurai

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Post Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

According to Locksmith Reference here https://www.lockreference.com/ratings-for-safe-locks/ If a lock meets the UL 2058 standard it can be labeled "Type 1" otherwise it cannot. From the article:
"Unlike UL 768’s multiple grades, UL 2058 currently only offers the one grade which makes it essentially a pass/fail system. Using an electronic lock that is not rated as UL Type 1 is not recommended on any burglary rated safe."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:10 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Saenks!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Topy

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Post Wed May 06, 2020 2:29 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Would anyone know anything more about this Lagard Group 1R?
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MHM

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Post Wed May 06, 2020 4:49 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

Never seen or even heard of it, best I could find on it was the auction site you got that initial photo from, plus a tantalisingly useless cutaway photo, plus this US Military handbook from 1989 which I'm picking you've already found?

https://pdfslide.net/documents/mil-hdbk-1013-08.html

The schematic is interesting in that it doesn't actually seem to show anything that would defeat x rays, unless the wheels are plastic. Also the first of the two patents is for a hardplate mounting plate that sits between the lock and the door...it talks in great detail about carbide chips in concentric rings but unless it's also got lead in there (again maybe in concentric rings like the Manifoil, who knows?) then that patent won't be relevant to its R rating either. I couldn't make any sense of the second patent number, weirdly.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed May 06, 2020 9:11 am

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

The Group 1R looks like a 1985, but has plastic wheels. The change key is different from normal La Gard wheels as you can see at the hole of the cover.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mastersmith

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Post Thu May 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Group 1R Combination Locks

When I was working a government contract LaGard came out with this first version of a Group 1 lock. It sucked! The wheels are indeed plastic and VERY fragile. A common problem I had with these was for the inner and outer wheels to move when the combination had not been changed. The really fine teeth did not hold the 2 sections very well. If you stuck the key in but forgot to turn it, you could still turn the dial! Who would do that you ask? Government employees (at least then) have to change their own combinations. Like all things, if you don't do it often memory fades. I put on probably 100 of these locks. I replaced every one of them. They were not made for the rigors of this world!
Last edited by mastersmith on Thu May 21, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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