S&G6730: Some combinations won't reveal a gate?

[mk5734]

Hello to everyone!

I'm a newbie to this safe lock manipulation stuff, so please forgive my ignorance of the subject. Both my son and I are interested in lock picking and now manipulation. I recently purchased a Big Red Wheel CDL-3 cutaway on a practice stand from MBA USA as well as their S&G 6730 combo pack and a practice stand that I mounted it on myself. I also have a copy of National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation, which I've read a couple of times, and watched safe manipulation tutorials on YouTube.

Here's my question:
Both my son and I would set a combination on a lock for the other to manipulate open. However, I (accidentally) came up with a combination that is unyielding to revealing any gates on either the S&G6730 or the CDL-3. That combination is 28-74-41. I have graphed out that combination with AWL, AWR, and parked W1 & W2 to try to find the gate on W3 on BOTH of those locks. I get no discernible information that I can see would lead me to infer a gate anywhere. Has anyone else ever experienced this? Is this a thing that can happen? Or is it that I'm WAY too much of a novice?

What I observe on the CDL-3 cutaway, is that the inner-clamp (?) on W2 comes up to the surface of the wheel and possibly a few thousandths of an inch above, thus lifting the level. This is just about at the same point of the gate on W1, which then becomes shadowed. I don't know if my conclusion is true; it's just a hypothesis.

Thanks for your help!
MK

[MartinHewitt]

The bahvior of your R6730 is not unusual. What were your reasons where to park W1/W2?

[mk5734]

Thank you, MartinHewitt, for replying.

First, I just arbitrarily chose W1@L0 and W2@R0. That didn't help. Then it occurred to me that since I had already graphed the entire thing with AWL & AWR that I should park them at the lowest points on the graph (I can't remember where that was), which I did, then repeated the graphing to no avail.

[MartinHewitt]

Everyone believes that manipulation is about finding the gates of the wheels. The truth is, that it is about finding the lowest spots on the wheels. (It is just a coincidence, that in the end there are also the gates.) So everything which helps you to lower the lever and hence narrow the distance of the contact points is an improvement. Your first idea of parking W1/W2 at a random location is not a good idea, your second one is. You can do the same procedure with the other wheels. Keep W1 where it is, put W3 where the lowest location in your graph is and do a scan of W2 to find there the next lowest point. With the LG 3330 it is important to not modify the rotation direction, when you do this. With the R6730 it should be no problem. But as you already did the manipulation of this lock a few times you should probably know how a change of rotation changes your graph.

[mk5734]

Thank you again, sir!

That appears to be sound advice. This afternoon I shall try again.

Just a quick followup question: For the R6730, are there a configurations in which it is nearly impossible to manipulate the lock open (without an exhaustive search), or by digging lower and lower and isolated each wheel (if need be), that one should be able to reveal a gate at some point?

[MartinHewitt]

There is no impossibility, but generally combinations with numbers near by a often more difficult to manipulate. Maybe the 28<->41 is the source of your problem.

[MHM]

Everyone believes that manipulation is about finding the gates of the wheels. The truth is, that it is about finding the lowest spots on the wheels.

This should be tattooed on the inside of every lock nmanipulator's eyelids.

[L4R3L2]

Not to nitpick, but the lowest spots on the wheels are the gates, the finding of which is ultimately the goal of manipulation. But, I understand what you are saying.

Edit: Oops. My bad. That's what you meant when you said, "It is just a coincidence, that in the end there are also the gates." Spot on.