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J & J Taylor walk in safe door

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Rockyis1dog

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:43 pm

J & J Taylor walk in safe door

Hello, I'm new here and found you all while researching my newly acquired J & J Taylor Safe Works walk in safe door and frame.
I'm afraid the combination has passed away with the 3 previous owners, but I don't see that as a "stopper" . It currently is in (I assume) a locked open position.
Safe background: I removed it from a brick walk in safe, I assume as early as an 1920's vintage, hey 100 years old! I'm not that old but often feel like I am, ahh the rust years... back on track... Originally the building manufactured leather accessories (I'm sure there is a real name for that) for the horse and buggy crowd. When I was employed in that building they manufactured paper boxes and printed letterpress printing. I always wondered WHY a building like that would have a walk in safe as well 3 other smaller heavy safes. It had been suggested to me for payroll as well storing silver and gold that was used in making saddles etc.
My goal is to use this on my second floor "bonus room" the weird room off the bathroom on the second floor (100+ yr. old house). The 1,000 lbs. I estimate the door and frame at might need a conversation with the engineer son-in-law to examine this possibility.
I think I should be able to sort out the combination as access to the magic bits of the lock is available. My BIG concern is I CAN remove the large plate on the back of the door BUT in doing that am I going to trigger stink bombs or otherwise mess up the safe door?
I had a friend here in Winnipeg who was a Real Locksmith but he suddenly passed away a couple of years ago, poor bastard, too young.
I will attach a bunch of pictures and would love to pick (punny lol) anyone's brain that has constructive information on my direction.
PS If my son in law engineer tells me I'm off my rocker if I think the house will support my plan... is there a market or value anyone would like to suggest on the safe door and frame?
Thanks for your input and being here~!
I see a serial number on the T handle of 36 (3 or 5) 68
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bitbuster

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

Value on the big boat-anchor safes can vary from 'free, get it out of here' to whatever someone is willing to pay. Good luck on shoring up the area that this safe will be parked. I believe the lock is an S&G 6810.
"This squid is so undercooked I can still hear it telling Sponge Bob to fuck off."-----Gordon Ramsay
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:58 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

The lock is probably a 6810 if it has three wheels. They are quite nice. Dialing sequence is like in a normal modern combination lock 4x left, 3x right, 2x left, right to open. You can find out the combination by turning the dial left and right and look up the numbers when the wheel's gates are under the fence. You can pull out the bolt and lever to have a better view. You can also first try combinations like 10/20/30 or 50/25/50.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Rockyis1dog

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:00 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

Hi Bit Buster,
Thanks for the lock info, what sort of lubrication should be used? If any?
Good advice on the support the wall, it's actually a foundation wall, the original outside wall from 1911. Towards value, it's been a bicep tearing hernia ripping journey thus far, I guess beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. I came across a really beautiful round headed wheel based antique safe picture as I poked about. Just a work of art!! I guess look at me! look at me! isn't the best thing for a safe though...
The great news is no stink bombs went off during the process!!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:10 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

A good cleaning is probably necessary. For this wiping off the parts is probably enough. That lock doesn't look bad. The most important thing is to lube less than what you think it needs. Lube points are where the bolt turns and the pipe where the wheels and the drive cam touch it, also lightly where the dial touches the dial ring near the spindle. Lube gets solid as it ages and can then create lock malfunctions. If it is ugly to turn after lubing, then it is most often an alignment problem or perhaps someone has put in to many washers (the big ones). Some people think filling every cavity with a pound of grease would help, but it really doesn't. Trust me! Cleaning and lubing the bolt work is probably also a good idea. I don't expect that there is anything dangerous in that door.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Riyame

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:08 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

MartinHewitt wrote:The lock is probably a 6810 if it has three wheels. They are quite nice. Dialing sequence is like in a normal modern combination lock 4x left, 3x right, 2x left, right to open. You can find out the combination by turning the dial left and right and look up the numbers when the wheel's gates are under the fence. You can pull out the bolt and lever to have a better view. You can also first try combinations like 10/20/30 or 50/25/50.



From what I know J&J made their own locks. They appear to be based on S&G locks however.
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If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:22 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

It would be a very well made copy.
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In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Rockyis1dog

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Post Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:01 am

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

What a friendly bunch~!
I have to say, Safe Crackers earn every dime they get!
My Bro in Law called me up at 2pm and said "what are you up to?" I said screw work! I'm playing safecracker today!
He got here at 3 we opened the bar at 3:05 and a few drinks later, lots of scrap paper sprinkled about the shop floor and the combination was solved!
I never understood the beauty in a combination lock until now, very clever with the different diameters of the wheels, ever so slight. Not really noticeable to the naked eye, not 100% round either.
I'm a wee bit pumped up! My first safe cracking adventure. However I don't think I could have done it without this forum, my bro in law and the vodka with OJ strictly medicinal of course.
After MartinHewitt's comment regarding lubrication and playing with the mechanism, I don't think it really needs any lubrication. Everything is smooth and loose for function as is. I have seen old greece turn dry turn sticky and become a dirt magnet. I think I will just rub the inside doors with an oil soaked cloth to keep away any future corrosion.
Ended up being 3 or more spins counter clockwise to clear it to zero
3 spins clockwise to 82
1 spin and travel to 79
1 spin and travel to 51
back counter clockwise to align 28 with the straight line then clockwise to bring the 100 below the star....
Is that weird?
I know the many times I tried with the 432 or 321 spins I lost my mind and yelled at poor Rocky... he wagged his tail though, what an understanding fella. I wish I could be the guy he thinks I am...
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:44 am

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

Yes, it is weird and unnecessarily complicated. Dialing to 0 to clear it is not necessary, because the dialing of the first number clears the lock. Also dialing to 28 would be unnecessary if the last number would be set with a counter clockwise rotation (with setting the second last number by a clockwise rotation and the first number by a counter clockwise rotation). The "1 spin and dial to 79" works just by accident because the previous wheel has a very similar number (or the same?). If you change the combination it would most likely change to "2 spin and dial to xx". This guy describes the easier way of doing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5vQwhoFfkw When you change your way of dialing to this way of dialing your numbers will shift lightly. So you will have a look at the open lock to check. Because the first two numbers are so close it might be, that the first two wheels are set to the same number. If this is the case, then 4x clockwise (R) to 82, 2x counter clockwise (L) to some number near 51, clockwise to open would be enough.

If it is working perfectly well, then it is indeed a good idea just not to touch it.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mastersmith

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Post Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

No one ever answered his question about removing the back door cover. There should really be no problem with doing that. Once you have that kind of access there is no need to protect anything. This is the one place where lubrication may come in handy. The bolt works usually need some grease. Just bear in mind that if it can come out on the bolts, it can get on clothing. You will find some pivot points inside that will indeed benefit from a little TLC. If you decide to change the combination on that lock, pay a tech to do it. Then you will be assured it is working before you lock a room up with it. That is a beautiful door! Enjoy it!
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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jeffmoss26

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Post Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:04 am

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

wow, beautiful!
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
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Rockyis1dog

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Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:23 pm

Re: J & J Taylor walk in safe door

Morning,
I will leave the combination as is, I believe I have sold the door and frame for $2500 I'm not sure if that is too high or too low but if both parties are happy it is just perfect.
I noticed in the picture of the lock posted by Martin Hewitt that there appears to be a small brass leaf spring that applies (likely) slight pressure to the arm that drops into the slots on the 3 wheels. I checked my lock and that leaf spring is not on this lock. I thought maybe it had fallen away over the years but after close inspection there is no mounting place. Too bad, I think it is an improvement on the design. If there had been a mounting spot I would have manufactured a matching leaf spring to "upgrade" this lock.
Towards lubrication, I bathed the interior of the door with a coating of WD40 allowed it to soak and then wiped it all down. After that I cleaned it with a 60/40 mix of 10W oil and kerosene. We use this mix to clean small letterpress numbering machines. Try it, it cleans and lubricates without being so oily that it attracts dust. I did apply a mineral oil to all the "bolts" (the bars that hold it closed) as it is clean, and light. I thought about using graphite as it does not attract any dust but is inherently messy to touch. I then soaked the front twice with WD40 and wiped it down after each application. The crazing in the paint on the front door ever so slight, is still present as I did not want to destroy the patina. I oiled the 2 hinge's with a medium machine oil.
I asked my prospective client if they would be re-selling the door, they intend to keep it for their own home. I asked if they were concerned about scratches and they stated they may want to have it professionally restored. I offered the thought of having a wrap printed and applied to the outside, because then they can keep the original 100+ year old patina.
I am new here, but I wonder if there is a forum for restorer's? Surely there must be some beautiful work craftsmen would like to show?
Time to hunt~!
Thanks again to an extremely knowledgeable crowd, you have my respect and admiration!

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