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Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

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MrBojangles

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Post Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:31 pm

Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

I have this safe recently purchased at auction, unlocked, so that's the good news.

The safe with the combination given, turning right 4 times, left 3 times, right two times, left one time, does not work. Nor does the reverse, starting with left 4 times...

I have before had a 3 combination safe and worked backwards, all 3 wheels being in the door, to decipher the combination.

In this case, one of the 4 wheels remains in the door, and the other three are removable in a "pack" which they remain in. When the pack is installed, I cannot see the gate of the wheels, and therefore, determine the combination, or change it, etc.

Photographs will be posted in a few days, as I don't have them right now.
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mastersmith

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Post Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:13 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

MrBojangles it would be much easier to post a picture so that we might see what you are dealing with. A visual is probably all we need to set you on the proper path.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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00247

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Post Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:36 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

I see you found your way here from the other forum. Welcome. For a start, try dialing your combo, then remove the wheel pack carefully and look to see if any of the gates line up to where the fence would be. You can keep doing a trial and error to figure it out. While it is a pita, you will understand the lock quite well when done. Best to post pictures as mentioned. We all love pictures and look forward to seeing them. Post plenty of the safe and lock, inside and out.
It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
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MrBojangles

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Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

The answer was provided on the other forum after I posted pictures. When it cools down, I will fabricate a tool to go in the case for the wheels. The safe is in a dark location that is very hot when it is hot out like it is now. Thank you, 00247.

I did the approach you suggested to try and remove the pack and line up, but a huge pita, like you said and I gave up thinking there's an easier way.

Compounding that, the safe is behind a vehicle in cramped space already, and I can get only five of the 6 screws out of the surface panel in the door. The upper right, of 6 screws won't budge, so it means doing all this with the panel propped up on a wheelbarrow. So, the suggested approach might be the right one. Or at least the easier one. :safedial:
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bitbuster

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Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:43 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

All that is needed to read the straight tailpiece lock is a flat piece of metal 5"x .25". (length of wiper blade or even handle of long tension wrench). Insert into curb of lock (slot) and go through opening sequence. Line all wheel gates to 3 o'clock (looking from back of lock) and turn handle. Good job Orpington.
"This squid is so undercooked I can still hear it telling Sponge Bob to fuck off."-----Gordon Ramsay
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00247

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Post Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:59 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

As bitbuster said and as you learned on antique-locks, a fabricated tool slides in the slot on the back of the wheel pack. As the tool slides into each gate on a wheel while dialing, the number can be noted on the dial. It is a hand change lock similar to the one in the Diebold safe I am working on in another thread. Here is a picture of that lock with the tool in place.

IMG_2832.JPG
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It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
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MrBojangles

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Post Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:31 pm

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

Okay, to begin, turn right several times, greater than 4, to the first number of the combination, which, as verified, my "tool", which it turns out was the thin blade of a small pocket knife, identical, or nearly so, to the first number of the combination I was provided. Then left twice past the first number to the second number provided in the combination, which was identical to that which was provided. Then right, past this second number once, to where the pocket knife blade depresses, which was not the third number provided, but differs by 11, then left only to the last number, which seems to be one greater or one less than the number provided. This is the fourth disc as remaining in the door. Doing this, I actually got the fence to work at least once, entering all four gates. Not easily able to quite verify this number, as the knife blade is not quite long enough, but it seems repetition, and repetition, the first three numbers are verified as correct, with knife blade, but the fourth number is not always repeatable on future tries. It seems this should be able to be confirmed by rotating the handle as each number on dial is reached, but perhaps this messes things up as maybe it is designed not to confirm the fourth number in this fashion when it simply enters the fourth gate.

Of course, there could be human error here, but, like I said, the first three numbers are repeatable on multiple attempts and the fourth number worked when one higher and one lower than the number provided on two of at least 10 attempts.

Of course, I want this to work, as being locked out would be a bummer!

Incidentally, I was told to go right 4, left 3, right 2, left 1 then to number, and it seems it is really right 3 (or more), left 2, right 1, then to last number leftward.

PS: Thanks for "tool" advice. I just got on this thread for the first time since I last posted. I simply looked around the house to see what would work and discovered I really didn't have to fabricate anything.

Just got around to doing this, not because I am mechanically incompetent, but because the garage is incredibly hot this time of year and I have a job, which wastes much of my waking hours, ...

Any ideas?
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MrBojangles

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Post Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:16 pm

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

I wasn't thinking clearly...

If the knife only goes 3 wheels deep, the fourth number can be determined by removing the wheel pack and rotating until it aligns with the fence and observing it with the wheel pack removed.

So, I swear I got the 4 number combination to work at least once.

But, I cannot consistently get it to work. In fact it rarely works. I think I am dialing it exactly the same way every time, and confirmed using the knife the first 3 numbers of the combination.

Any thoughts???
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:03 pm

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

I assume "not working" means that you can't turn the handle to retract the bolt work because it In case of a situation when it did not work:
1) If you put torque on the handle and then wiggle/turn a bit the dial, does the dial bind? Is perhaps the gate of the cam directly connected to the dial slightly off?
2) When you remove the wheel pack, are the wheels nicely aligned or is there a zigzag pattern because your knife is not wide enough?
(I assume you dial always the same left/right sequence, because that has also a huge influence.)
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MrBojangles

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Post Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

I have no idea what I was doing wrong, but, for some reason, what I perceived to be the third number in the combination was 4 higher than it actually was.

I now tried the "new" combination and it has now successfully worked 3 times in a row. Now getting too dark in the garage. Will try it another 10 or 15 times tomorrow, and if it works all times successfully, I will then actually lock the safe.

Thanks to you all. Really, I appreciate it. Saved me having to lug a heavy safe door many miles to pay someone $75 what I was able to do on my own...with your assistance!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:52 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

Great! Have fun with your safe!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MrBojangles

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Post Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:44 pm

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

The dimensions of this safe are 23" deep, 45" high, and 30" wide. Any ideas as to valuation? I will reveal what I paid for it, including shipping to my residence, at a recent auction, once I receive one or more answers. I shipped using the shipper who provided the lowest estimate, and still it was rather costly.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:28 am

Re: Hall's Patent 1906 safe and combination

Without pictures to help determine model and so on, valuation is not possible any more than if I told you my wife drives a white Toyota with a 3.0 liter engine, how much is the Toyota worth?

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.

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