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First manipulation- Finally!!!

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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:25 pm

First manipulation- Finally!!!

I have been gathering locks and information for the past 5 years or so on manipulation NLGM,Daggers book and finally Lockmasters manipulation course. OCD possibly, procrastination, definitely. I started 3/26/19 with an s&g 6700 series.Learning to read precisely was the biggest hurdle so far, Oldfasts idea in original chronicles of using a bent straight pin on the indicator helped immensely. Thank You, Sir. First wheel to read was #3 awr every 2.5#. Second wheel to read was #1 with #3 parked,awl every 2.5#. This threw a monkey wrench in following Lockmasters course and my brain function. Finally figured out how to read wheel #2 by dialing 4xL to 791/2 (wheel #1) 3xR to test wheel #2 2xL to42 (wheel #3) Combination is L79.5, R 7.5, L42 drop in ,retract. What is gnawing at me is what is the abbreviated dialing procedure to find wheel 2 when 1 and 3 are known? Any help would be appreciated. Finished this manipulation at 2 a.m. so I am sleep deprived and rambling. On to my next Lock, Thanks
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femurat

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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Location: Italy

Post Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:16 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Welcome to the club!
Park wheel 1 to its known gate and never touch it again.
Wheel 2 around right I suppose.
Wheel 3 at its known gate.
Check contact points.

Now move wheel 2 two increments right, re position wheel 3 at its known gate and check contact points.
Repeat until you've done a full revolution with wheel 2.

Cheers :)
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femurat

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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Location: Italy

Post Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Let me try to clarify: once you've checked contact points, turn the dial right until your reach wheel 2, so only 2 turns. Just touch it and move it two increments. Then go left and position wheel 3. There's no need to reset the lock and move wheel 1.

Cheers :)
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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:28 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Thank You, that will be much faster
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4327

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:48 am

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

.

Great work John. GREAT work! Very exciting! :spinning:

The challenges you encountered with this first spin are nearly identical to my own. I remember struggling with the division of an increment and the debate on exactly what to label each and every reading as I worked my way around. It certainly took me some time (probably longer than most, lol). And then it can change with each dial & dial ring.

You also mentioned wheel action, which again is something I clearly remember grappling with. I would very easily get lost within the wheelpack - forget where I had been, where I was going, or what the hell I was even trying to accomplish in the first place(!) lol. I'd often end up clearing the dial entirely just to get my bearings and start over.

Wheel action is one of those fundamental building blocks of manipulation. This seems like an obvious statement I know, but... it's one that many of us (myself included) may have breezed over a little too lightly in our excitement. Be conscious of where you're at, what's moving, where you left the others, and when/where each wheel will be picked up again. Spend the time now and it will pay off. Once wheel movement becomes more fluent and thoughtless, your mind will no longer be tied to this task - it will be freed up to do what it should be doing; analyzing real-time data!


At any rate, all very common challenges at first. I'd say you overcame them well(!) and you're right on track.

Given the amount of time & effort you've spent preparing to get into manipulation, it looks like you'll be sticking with it. It's always a great day when I see another spinner join in around here. I thoroughly look forward to seeing more from you!! Thanks for sharing.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Thanks and keep up the good work with your postings, there are a lot of members here that read your adventures.
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AL usher69

Familiar Face

Posts: 59

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Congratulations John I'm excited for you and know like you said you've been studying for a while. As usual the guys here are of great help. Just reading what they posted here will be of great help to me. I hope to see you here with more adventures of safe cracking..
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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:46 am

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Hey Al, Thanks and I hope to see postings from you too. I will post pictures of another manipulation soon.
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L4R3L2

Familiar Face

Posts: 116

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:48 am

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:37 am

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Good job! Manipulation can be very rewarding, and very frustrating at times. Just realize that you learn more through the frustrating times, if you analyze what is going on. Eventually, you'll find what was once frustrating to be a walk in the park, and you'll get a LaGard and become frustrated again. lol! Progress doesn't come without a price. Keep at it.
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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:38 am

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Thanks, I laughed when I read your post as I spent the first week being frustrated because my charts had some wild peaks and valleys. Then I came to the realization that I was using a Lagard lock, LOL. Hours of frustration and lots of charts and the charts varied considerably. I mounted an S&G and the mountains and valleys tamed down quite a bit.
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L4R3L2

Familiar Face

Posts: 116

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:48 am

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:54 am

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

I rarely actually find gate signatures on my practice LaGard. I end up doing single wheel isolation and finding the valley floors. Using center of the valley floor for that wheel, I do the same for the next wheel. Then, as the valley floors narrow, I find new centers. Eventually the lock just unlocks. The gates seem to be at the lowest points on the wheels on this one. I don't know if they are all like this, but it sure does prolong the spin sessions, and I rarely get the satisfaction of knowing where gates are before they line up for opening.
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castagnojohn

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 am

Location: Alaska

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:33 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

I am looking forward to spinning a LaGard intentionally after some more learning. The dial on my LaGard was an S&G and I took it at face value now, I know how to tell the difference with a practice lock where the lock is visible. How could you tell the type of lock you have on a safe if it was mongralized like my first lock? Contact points?, or just the difference in readings? The further I get down this rabbit hole the more questions and answers I find, and the more time I spend working on this.
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MartinHewitt

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Posts: 1065

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:34 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

At the beginning you can just guess. The guess can then be optimized based on feeling and lock behavior. With a basic strategy (=optimize all wheel positions until the lock is open) every basic lock type will open. If you know what lock lock it is, the basic strategy can be optimized. That is nice, but the main point is that the safe will be open.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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madsamurai

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Active Member

Posts: 283

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 am

Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Congrats on your first lock! If you haven't read already, there are a few discussions on here about LaGard and wheel float... don't be surprised if you don't find any indications turning one direction but find gate signatures turning the opposite way. I always start my LaGard sessions with a AWL scan AND and AWR scan... typically one way will be barren and the other will show a potential gate or two. Having a really good grasp on wheel positions will help a lot with these, as you may find you need to scan each wheel the same direction in some cases. I have one that only indicates gates when scanning right, on all the wheels together or individually... it can get confusing, but once you get it you'll have a big advantage going forward. Good luck!
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MartinHewitt

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Prolific Poster

Posts: 1065

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 pm

Re: First manipulation- Finally!!!

Yeah, it is generally a good idea and especially if you do not know the lock, that you do not assume a change of direction will leave the heights of the wheel unchanged. Things like 1) AWL scan, 2) park W1+W2 right at lowest point from AWL and scan W3 around left. In a 3330 you will be doomed for a failure. With a R6730 you will probably get through unharmed. In this example it is better to either exchange step 1 with an AWR or step 2 with W1+W2 left and W3 right.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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