Page 1 of 1

Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:51 am
by MartinHewitt
Satoh Lock Co Sun Magnetic

It is some kind of a direct entry fence lock in magic module format. It has two magnets which pull the fence. That's where the lock got its name from. Sounds cool, but I believe the magnets do not matter much, if at all. The main work is done by a sprint (when looking into the opened lock) located under the bolt. This spring is shown in the drawing in Mark Bates' book. The magnets may help to keep the fence in the gates, but I don't think they are strong enough to pull the fence in on their own, when the spring has broken. Perhaps when gravity helps. (Most locks were mounted VU.) Dialing is done by 4xR, 3xL, 2xR, L until it stops at 9 and is open. A right turn pushes out the fence and locks it.

The fence has barely no contact with the drive cam until all gates have been set. So there is no CP at all. You can see the missing of the CP on the left photo. I don't think this is due to wear, but a design feature. When turning the dial it is possible to feel very slight indications of one gate. At the current combination it is gate 3 with AWL and with AWR its gate 2. When I try to confirm gate 3 by positioning W1 and W2 to something near gate 3 and then turning W3 alone over the gate I feel nothing. Perhaps I can get more information about an AWR/AWL with a mike. In case I could attribute gate 3 to W3 I would know one number, but I don't see how that helps opening that lock other than shortening the time for an auto-dialer. If I would be able to find the first number, than it might help to find more numbers with AWR/AWL just for W2+W3. So I am not optimistic, that I could manipulate a safe with this lock. The safe where is lock came from was drilled to open.

The lock has no change index. Unlike with other locks I have seen where the mechanism to push the fence out is on W1, the mechanism to keep the fence out is here on the lock cover.

The relocker is the spring above the left magnet.

PS: I think it could be possible to manipulate that lock with a mike.

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:28 pm
by Oldfast
This is some good stuff here Martin.

It's nice to see some clear, concise pictures of this lock rather than the old black & white blurry one's I've come across. I agree this is essentially a DE lock. Only oddity is the use of a small diameter drive cam.

Now the magnets; do they actually 'pull' the fence in, helping to retract the bolt? Or, are they there to 'push' the fence off and away from the cam once the bolt is extended?

Manipulating; As you mentioned, if w1 (or even w2) were to reveal itself, odds are good of catching gates on the remaining wheel(s) as you work your way out. On the other hand, if w3 is the only gate to be revealed, it's going to be more difficult (or at least more work) to locate gates on wheels 1&2.

With the current combo, you mentioned you're able to detect two gates - one from either direction. In my mind this does leave you with some info to work with. Let's just say you catch a gate @ 20 w/ AWR. Then 60 w/ AWL. This gives you some 'park and run' scenarios. You can park all wheels at one of these numbers... then progressively pickup wheels from there... being very attentive with each revolution for another gate.

AWR to 20. Then go Left picking up w3. As you bring it around see if there's a gate @ 60 (or anywhere within the revolution for that matter). If nothing, continue around picking up w2... and bring 3&2 around together.

If nothing, reverse the scenario... Park AWL @ 60... go Right, progressively picking wheels up again, listening/feeling with each revolution.

Some of the methods in this ancient article here lol, could maybe, in part, be applied to this lock.

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:55 pm
by MartinHewitt
Oldfast wrote:Only oddity is the use of a small diameter drive cam.

Not really. There is exactly one real reason for a small diameter drive cam and this applies to the Magnetic as it does to the R6730: Drive cam on the cover side and changeable with a change key. There are solutions with a big drive cam for cover mounted wheels (Mosler with covered change key hole on W3, S&G 6500/6400 locks which stop the change key wit the cover), but with the order in the Magnetic there is no alternative.

Oldfast wrote:Now the magnets; do they actually 'pull' the fence in, helping to retract the bolt? Or, are they there to 'push' the fence off and away from the cam once the bolt is extended?

They do. This bracket on the bolt is steel and magnets do with steel what magnets do.

Oldfast wrote:Manipulating; ... With the current combo, you mentioned you're able to detect two gates - one from either direction. In my mind this does leave you with some info to work with. Let's just say you catch a gate @ 20 w/ AWR. Then 60 w/ AWL. This gives you some 'park and run' scenarios. You can park all wheels at one of these numbers... then progressively pickup wheels from there... being very attentive with each revolution for another gate. ... (and so on)

I could not feel anything with this method. I tried it already. But I get contact points with a mike. Often no CP at all, sometimes a click when I turn the dial quickly over the RCP and sometimes a click when I turn the dial slowly over the RCP. I think this can be used to manipulate the lock. Maybe not all Magnetics, but at least this Magnetic. When listening to an AWR I mostly get just this gate which I can feel. When I listen to an AWL I get multiple hick-ups where one is a gate and the others not. I changed the known combination to an unknown one for a manipulation session.

Oldfast wrote:Some of the methods in this ancient article here lol, could maybe, in part, be applied to this lock.

Thanks, I haven't seen that one yet!

Btw. directional offset is 2/3.5/4.5. Unlike with the 700 it really matters here.

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:45 pm
by Oldfast
MartinHewitt wrote:
Oldfast wrote:Now the magnets; do they actually 'pull' the fence in, helping to retract the bolt? Or, are they there to 'push' the fence off and away from the cam once the bolt is extended?

They do. This bracket on the bolt is steel and magnets do with steel what magnets do.

Oh right, lol. Kind of a 'dunce' moment on my part. Pushing would require another set of opposing magnets. It's seems curious that they would include the magnets along with the spring rather than just one or the other being sufficient. But obviously both are needed... otherwise they wouldn't be there I suppose.

Well, I certainly look forward to hearing more as you continue to spin on this.

Hey, how about gate widths? What kinda tolerance you dealing with?

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:52 pm
by MartinHewitt
Gate width for opening is 2 or a bit more. They will probably indicate quite a bit more than that.

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:47 pm
by MartinHewitt
Yup, can be manipulated. Open in 2 hours.

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:52 am
by Oldfast


:spinning:

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:41 pm
by jharveee
Front.JPG
Back.JPG

Re: Satoh Lock Co - Sun Magnetic

PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:39 pm
by MartinHewitt
Looks great!