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Kromer 3065

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:57 pm

Kromer 3065

Borrowed this rather special lock for a closer look.

On the first two photos it looks very normal. No protection against manipulation at all. But on the third photo you see its special feature: two flies per disk. The effect for the user is that the combination is dialed as 2L, 1R, 1L, R to stop. Verrrry convenieeent! After one full turn you are guaranteed to move W1, because after at most 20 numbers you catch W3, about the same more and you get W2 and 40 to 50 more and you have W1. The contact points can be read easily. The pickup of W3 can be heard too. I can't feel or hear the pickup of W2 and W1 without tools. Not yet tried with a mic. So while the basic mechanisms of manipulation work quite well with this lock and the range of possible combinations is not that big it is quite difficult for me to determine which wheels I move. Because I can only guess from one sample I do not know if the possible rotational range varies from lock to lock. From what I see I can "only" say that W3 is between W2 and W1 and within 20 numbers above the RCP, that W2 is below the RCP and W1 above. In this lock the lever was twisted, so I can't say how big the shift of the CPs generally is. In this lock it is about a 3/4 number for W1 on the LCP, which looks to me more interesting.

Do you know any other locks with double flies?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:35 pm

Re: Kromer 3065

Basic data:

- Gate width is 3.
- Pin hole distance is on the average 4.
- Reverse movement to pickup W1 again is on this lock 68 numbers.
- Fly distance can be measured roughly with clashing of pin/fly when a mic is used to listen for the click. From looking at the wheels I would say the distance on the cam is 17, from turning the dial and listening for the click my estimation was 19. Getting fly distance on the wheels is more difficult.

After thinking the whole day about this lock I believe:

1) The front fly determines the number of the wheel behind, because the pin is always opposite of the gate.
2) The back fly is always one hole away from the pin, probably to safe "space". After all there is only one rotation to distribute all numbers. Otherwise 2L/1R/1L would not work.
3) If there is only one type of drive cam, which seems likely to me as there are no convenient holes like in the wheels, then W3 has on all locks the same number, i.e. RCP + 2. Nearly all of the free movement the flies on the drive cam allow (17 numbers) are used by the forbidden-zone effect. So even if the front fly of the cam is moved by some precious 12 numbers there are not great possibilities with W3.
4) If items 1 to 3 are correct, then all the other numbers can be deduced by the distance of the flies.
5) Even if the distance of the flies can't be determined then from 1 to 3 follows that W2 must be not higher than 85.
6) If the front fly shifts around rather freely (besides the one-turn rule) then the gate of W1 can be between the gate of W2 and W3. Edit: Nope.

Still more to think about it.
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:04 pm

Re: Kromer 3065

Different version from this lock under a different name: https://wiki.koksa.org/HUWIL
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:59 pm

Re: Kromer 3065

I think from:
1) Gate width is 3.
2) Turning distance of reverse movement pickup of W1, which can be felt easily
3) The front fly determines the number of the wheel behind, because the pin is always opposite of the gate.
4) The back fly is always one hole away from the pin, probably to safe "space".
5) If there is only one type of drive cam with a distance of 19 between the flies.
6) W3 is always 2 above the RCP
it is possible to open the lock with less than 20 trial combinations. I have to find some more locks to verify this. If W1 shows up in manipulation only of the trial combinations is possible.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Oldfast

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:31 am

Re: Kromer 3065

An interesting one there Martin. And yeah, restricted key space for sure.

So have you any idea what type of safes you might see that little bugger on?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:44 am

Re: Kromer 3065

The linked lock says "furniture safe", i.e. for metal boxes which are mounted in a cabinet. I will ask where this lock came from.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:34 pm

Re: Kromer 3065

And it is also used in cheap wall safes.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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