FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

Friction-Fence Locks

<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:51 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

More about the Sun 700.

Open in 3 1/4 hours. It is stopping at 9 when opening. The right contact point is not so useful. There is a point where the right CP doesn't get better. At this point it is difficult or even impossible to turn over the right CP. But the left CP can be optimized to the end.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:31 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Some lock porn.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:39 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

It looks so harmless and it is easy to make graphs, but somehow the gates hide. I am now 4 hours into my second manipulation, but so far only a few candidates for gates on all wheels and the lock won't open. Are real friction fence locks the same? Is there also an bottom line on the right CP?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:06 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

The S&G 6705 is not a copy of a friction fence lock, but its operation is the same as the Sun 700.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4374

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:42 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Damn Martin!! Those are some real nice looking pics! You make yourself a 'light-box'?,
or (did you have a photo studio built onto your house, lol). Either way, I forsee some
fiiiiiiine lock-porn cumming from you from now on :D

MartinHewitt wrote:After a closer look on the photos in Mark Bates' book I believe the Sun 700 is not a friction fence lock. While it is generally constructed like e.g. your Yale, I do see something which could be a spring and I don't see any gears.

Oldfast wrote:.....now that I'm taking a close look, you're absolutely correct... there is no gear and is not driven by friction. It is clearly a spring-loaded fence. The more technically correct term might be a 'spring-loaded roller fence'?

At a quick glance, it easily appears to be a knock-off OC5. And thing is... I've heard some very experienced safe-techs not only refer to it as a 'friction-fence', but even mention that there will be only one contact point when manipulating....


So you know this, and I now in turn know it... but I think it's worth repeating that the 700 is not a friction-fence lock. Nor is the 6705, or the Yale 062 1/2 on this Mosler-Bahmann. But I see how these can easily be mistaken as such. You see a gear or two. You see the familiar Yale-looking lever... yet they're not driven by friction, but by spring pressure.

Your nice clean/clear photos of the 700 make the spring quite obvious. Not so much with the 062 1/2 though. Look closer and you'll see a spring-loaded plunger that drives the fence. That plunger in itself is not enough to bring the fence fully into the gates though. That's actually accomplished mostly by the drive cam when its' gate catches the fence and pulls it in.

We should really differentiate this type of lever/fence into a class of its' own. I dunno if this is the correct term, or if a proper one already exists (if so let's hear it), but I've been calling this type a 'spring-loaded roller fence'. The standard spring-loaded lever 'drops' into the gates. Whereas the friction-fence 'rotates/pivots' into the gates as it's pulled in via the drive cam. The 'roller fence' shares characteristics from both these types, but again, is really something in its' own right - especially when we're looking at it in terms of manipulation.


MartinHewitt wrote:More about the Sun 700.

Open in 3 1/4 hours. It is stopping at 9 when opening. The right contact point is not so useful. There is a point where the right CP doesn't get better. At this point it is difficult or even impossible to turn over the right CP. But the left CP can be optimized to the end.
MartinHewitt wrote:It looks so harmless and it is easy to make graphs, but somehow the gates hide. I am now 4 hours into my second manipulation, but so far only a few candidates for gates on all wheels and the lock won't open. Are real friction fence locks the same? Is there also an bottom line on the right CP?
MartinHewitt wrote:PS: Gate width is 4 numbers. Quite a lot.
PPS: Left CP 96-97, Right CP 0-2.


You're getting your money's worth then :D As to your question on the difficulties that 700 is giving you and whether or not the same challenges occur in friction-fence locks? Sure they do. But not always. Sometimes it can be a much more straight forward process. No different than many other locks really; some can be really difficult to wring out the gates, and others are much easier.

So you say the LCP (96) is giving you the most useful information? That's good to know. Gosh, I wish I could remember what CP I used on that 062 1/2... but I didn't always keep the best of notes at that time.

Also, I can't help but wonder what affect it has on your Sun 700 to have a Yale driver in it rather than the original. It could be making it easier. Could be making it more difficult. Hard to say. Would've been nice to have the driver that belongs in it.


p.s. Oh, and the friction-fence lock in the magic module footprint? I'm not sure.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:48 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast wrote:Damn Martin!! Those are some real nice looking pics! You make yourself a 'light-box'?

It is just a sign for a cloudy sky as I took them outside on a sheet of paper.
Oldfast wrote:Mosler-Bahmann

Does this one also have a spring or is it driven by gravity?
Oldfast wrote:We should really differentiate this type of lever/fence into a class of its' own. I dunno if this is the correct term, or if a proper one already exists (if so let's hear it), but I've been calling this type a 'spring-loaded roller fence'. The standard spring-loaded lever 'drops' into the gates. Whereas the friction-fence 'rotates/pivots' into the gates as it's pulled in via the drive cam. The 'roller fence' shares characteristics from both these types, but again, is really something in its' own right - especially when we're looking at it in terms of manipulation.

I think all fences rotate somehow. I don't know any name for this type. Finding names for all variations is probably difficult. One variable is how the fence is pushed in: Friction (Yale OC-5), spring (R6730, Sun 700), gravity (Yale L2), direct handle-action (the cheap chinese stuff), indirect handle-action (the lock where the fence is pushed up by a slide on the bolt work). Then there are fences mounted on the lock body (Yale OC-5, Sun 700) and on the bolt (R6730, Yale L2). Where the fence is mounted on the bolt it can be pull-action (R6730) or push-action (Yale L2). And while we are naming options here: Wheel back front or back. Different kind of manipulation protection. I will try to make a fence category list.
Oldfast wrote:You're getting your money's worth then :D

Esp. as I got it for free.
Oldfast wrote:So you say the LCP (96) is giving you the most useful information?

Basically both CPs are usefull, but at one point in the optimization the RCP doesn't move any more as it has a bottom line. At that stage you can just feel how hard is to turn the dial over the RCP. On a real friction fence lock you only have the RCP, if I haven't mixed up directions.
Oldfast wrote:Also, I can't help but wonder what affect it has on your Sun 700 to have a Yale driver in it rather than the original.

I think it is the original Sun 700 drive cam. I don't see how an old OC-5 drive cam from the US should get in Germany into a good-as-new lock from Japan. Maybe they just copied it. Or maybe they originally planned to make a full copy and changed plans after the drive cam manufacturing was started? Or maybe there are indeed first generation Sun 700 locks which are friction fence.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4374

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:40 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

MartinHewitt wrote:
Oldfast wrote:Mosler-Bahmann

Does this one also have a spring or is it driven by gravity?

Spring-loaded. It's actually a spring-loaded pin that comes out of the
bolt assembly. Take a close look at some of the photos... you'll see it.


MartinHewitt wrote:
Oldfast wrote:So you say the LCP (96) is giving you the most useful information?

Basically both CPs are usefull, but at one point in the optimization the RCP doesn't move any more as it has a bottom line. At that stage you can just feel how hard is to turn the dial over the RCP.....

Oh, ok. Yeah, I see what you mean. So at some point during the manipulation, the RC pretty much flat-lines, shows no improvement. Basically feeding you little to no info.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Got the Sun 700 open again in 4:43. I did see indications at the beginning, but not the best ones. So I excluded them and wasted to much time on the good, but false indications.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Finally a good one. Open in 1:49. Just using the LCP. I believe even so the LCP feels pretty easy it isn't.

Tested the gate width of W1. The actual gate is around 3 to 4 numbers, but the range where I can wiggle the fence into the gate is around 6 numbers wide. I just hit the right contact point multiple times and W1 is slowly moving to the gate - on both sides. Looks a bit like impressioning.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4374

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Nice! You're definitely getting mileage out of this one. 'Paying your Dues' and learning plenty.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:37 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Is this THE friction fence patent? https://patents.google.com/patent/US840269A

Edit: I think so. It is basically a Yale Y-6.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4374

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Hmm. At first glance, it seems to focus more on the bolt. But further down it does give a very detailed description of the friction-fence, the sleeve, etc. Yeah, could very well be the one. I'm horrible at finding stuff like this though... so I leave that to you :)

An idea for you Martin (and I just might have to make another one, now that you found the patent on one of my favorite designs)
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:21 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

It looks probably even better with a patent from 1907.

I don't want to plaster your walls with patents, but the patent for the Automatic from 1865 would even look better: https://patents.google.com/patent/US85245
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4374

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:44 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oooo, you're right :) I like that one too.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1154

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:26 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Btw. there is at the moment a Sun 700 on US ebay. If you do want the link, PM me.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
PreviousNext

Return to Safes, Strongboxes & Combination Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware