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Friction-Fence Locks

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:24 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

L4R3L2 wrote:
Oldfast wrote:And how about the 0402? Had time to mount it yet?

No. The nice thing about an old lock with the tube is that it's all a self-contained unit. The ring is solid with the tube and body. But, other than that, I've been too busy, and today I just started working for a local locksmith. We'll see how that works out. But, I did find out that the owner had tried manipulation and decided it wasn't for him. So, straight to drilling. Hopefully, I can convince him to give me a shot at manipulation on some of the older or nicer safes. I don't know, though, how he'd take it since he seems to feel it's a waste of time. With work and family now, I may be a bit scarce around here during the week.

New work?.... with locks?! Well that's exciting! Congrats. I hope it works out (both financially AND enjoyably). On manipulation: I know some techs say they'll limit themselves to something like 20 minutes (seems fair enough). If the lock's talking, they'll proceed. If not, they grab a drill. On the other hand, there's also many that don't spend any time on the dial and just get straight to it.

Well I certainly enjoy your company around here. Hopefully life will allow you some time... but I know how it goes.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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mdc5150

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:39 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

L4R3L2 wrote:
Oldfast wrote:And how about the 0402? Had time to mount it yet?


No. The nice thing about an old lock with the tube is that it's all a self-contained unit. The ring is solid with the tube and body. But, other than that, I've been too busy, and today I just started working for a local locksmith. We'll see how that works out. But, I did find out that the owner had tried manipulation and decided it wasn't for him. So, straight to drilling. Hopefully, I can convince him to give me a shot at manipulation on some of the older or nicer safes. I don't know, though, how he'd take it since he seems to feel it's a waste of time. With work and family now, I may be a bit scarce around here during the week.


It's surprising to me how many locksmiths still think picking locks is all luck, and manipulation is a waste of time. If you can show your chops to this guy it will be your fastest route to getting him to change his mind and let you try.
Some people think if they took a class and they didn't understand it's all a waste of time and somehow everyone else just got lucky. They are very quick to discount hard work and practice because they didn't want to spend the time on the practice.
Good luck to you, working for a locksmith in the beginning can be a little rough depending on the personality type. Stick it out for a while unless the guy turns out to be a slimeball.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:29 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast wrote:Pictures of these are important because most of us don't see many.

...don't see any.

mdc5150 wrote:It's surprising to me how many locksmiths still think picking locks is all luck, and manipulation is a waste of time. If you can show your chops to this guy it will be your fastest route to getting him to change his mind and let you try.

I am training at the moment a safe tech doing a lot of work for banks, i.e. opening a lot of deposit boxes. Picking is so easy and reduces the costs. Only one trip to the bank and no door to repair.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mdc5150

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

MartinHewitt wrote:
Oldfast wrote:Pictures of these are important because most of us don't see many.

...don't see any.

mdc5150 wrote:It's surprising to me how many locksmiths still think picking locks is all luck, and manipulation is a waste of time. If you can show your chops to this guy it will be your fastest route to getting him to change his mind and let you try.

I am training at the moment a safe tech doing a lot of work for banks, i.e. opening a lot of deposit boxes. Picking is so easy and reduces the costs. Only one trip to the bank and no door to repair.

Martin, after working for someone who spent 30 years living in Germany I am not surprised that the German attitude is much different. I not only heard about the thouroughness and precision oriented work ethic, I got to experience it first hand. I wish more Americans would adopt it.
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Janp

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:29 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

This is what you think Mike?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:32 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Yes. That's it. I'll see if I have something for you.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Janp

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:41 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Thanks!
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L4R3L2

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Oldfast wrote: I hope it works out (both financially AND enjoyably). On manipulation: I know some techs say they'll limit themselves to something like 20 minutes (seems fair enough). If the lock's talking, they'll proceed. If not, they grab a drill. On the other hand, there's also many that don't spend any time on the dial and just get straight to it.


Thanks Mike and mdc5150. Today was much better. They kept me busy, and I learned a lot about their procedures. I also got to go on a safe call with the boss, and fell flat on my face.

The safe was an old Herring Hall Marvin. The new owner had two combinations he had been given, but was unable to open. The boss tried several times, then gave me the paper to try them out. I felt for the wheels and determined there were three. With a fourth number on the combos being zero, I was pretty sure that was the gate on the drive cam. I tried both combinations twice, RLRL and LRLR. Then I dialed as for a four wheel lock both ways as well. No opening. The boss gave it another shot, and got it open. Dang! I don't know what I did wrong, as the boss had dialed one of the ways I had, but I missed my opportunity to make a first safe impression.

The good news is that I may have an opportunity to buy it after the owner buys a newer safe for his papers. We'll see.

Back on topic, it sounds like the 029 1/2 is pretty rare? I understand the model is a Yale number, but it's being called a Mosler here. Did Yale make this as a Mosler lock? Or, did Mosler have the rights to manufacture a Yale model? I'm a bit confused about that.
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Janp

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

3-3 My last friction fence lock. Mosler/ Yale 5H lock with 3 wheels. Hope you like it.
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Janp

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:32 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

The last of this lock:
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:08 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Jan, some fantastic pictures of your 5-H (which looks to be in great shape by the way!)
Considering the internals are mostly concealed by the case, you've provided us with
some nice views. Should be very helpful for everyone. Thanks for taking the time.
....btw: pm'd ya about a dial ring for your OC5

L4R3L2 wrote:.....it sounds like the 029 1/2 is pretty rare?

Well, I dunno about 'rare'. I suppose it depends on where and what all you work on.
For me they're somewhat rare though, yeah. I usually see them on old Banker safes,
the secondary doors on such safes, and, on the jewelers chests often found inside.

L4R3L2 wrote:.....I understand the model is a Yale number, but it's being called a Mosler here. Did Yale make this as a Mosler lock?.....

Others will have to chime in if I'm wrong here. I think the 5-H is a true Mosler-made lock. However, the 025 1/2, 029 1/2, 062 1/2, 063 1/2, etc. are actually Yale locks. Some of them may have been specifically made for use by Mosler, but again, they're Yale-made locks.

For example, the 025 1/2 pictured in the OP is on a Mosler safe. There's a Mosler dial on it. And Mosler probably even had their own # for referencing. But on the inside of the cover is stamped 025 1/2. It is, by all rights, a Yale lock.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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00247

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Post Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:07 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

I took a look at my friction fence locks to check for the contact points. There were none to be found. A close inspection revealed why.

The drive cam tapers to a smaller diameter at the edge of both sides of the gate. The diameter of the drive cam is 1.980 and the diameter of the wheel pack is 1.860. The drive cam tapers to the same 1.860 at the edges of the gate. Also in play is the notch that is filed into the end of the fence that rolls into the aligned gates. When the dial is turned in the direction that causes the friction fence to move against the drive cam and wheel pack, the fence rides on the drive cam until it reaches the tapered spot. As it lowers on the taper it comes in contact with the wheel pack and is held above the gate on the drive cam. The diameter on both is the same at the gate edges but that is where that notch on the edge of the fence comes into play. The wheel pack holds the fence up on the full edge of the fence and the notched area acts as a multiplier increasing clearance between the fence and the drive cam.

In this video you can see the taper on the drive cam. At the beginning, the rotation moves the fence away. Watch how the clearance from the fence increases as the gate approaches and decreases as the gate moves away. Next the the rotation moves the fence against the drive cam. Here you can clearly see how the fence moves in as it approaches the gate or moves out when moving away from it. Remember as it moves in it will contact the wheel pack and be kept from touching the contact points of the drive cam.



I have 4 Mosler 5H locks in two styles. All are from screw door bank safes. The two for the double door are large case locks and are in excellent condition. The lower door must have not been used much as that lock is like new. The other two are from the small bodied screw door safes and have a very compact case in order to fit into the safe's door assembly. They have an odd bolt extender on them. All of these locks are direct drive.

Image

All of them have this feature. I am curious if all of the Mosler versions have this or if it was an added feature for the bank safes?

Because these locks are on screw door safes, there is no handle to add pressure on the fence. With the front trap door open to expose the lock I was able to push in on the bolt to apply some pressure. While dialing, I could feel a resistance change from about 98 to 10. I could also feel the bolt shift slightly as the fence went down the taper and contacted the wheel pack. If the fence contacted the drive cam the contact point would be at 5 for the direction that moves the fence in.

Image
It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:16 am

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

00247... I've read through your thoughts several times now. Some fantastic insights here. Thanks so much for the due diligence of really looking into the finer details, as well as the time to put it into words for us. This is some VERY interesting (and very intimidating(!) information.

It's been said that some companies back in the day, would finely hone and hand-finish their locks. Be it for smooth operation, manipulation resistance, or both... I have little doubt this was a common occurrence back then. Given the efforts we've all seen put towards pure aesthetics, we can only assume they'd go the extra mile for the lock operation as well.

Whether or not the features you've taken note of in your locks are common to many, or reserved for more 'high-end' applications... I really can't say, as I've not run into enough of them at this point. I can say I've worked with 5H's that have what I would almost call a distinct CP. Others that are rather faint. And still others where there's really no apparent CP until the wheels have been worked over. I suppose this, in and of itself, shows that not all of them will operate like the smooth dream you've described. But again, I don't have much of a test group yet to be speaking on it.

Again, great stuff 00247. Not the most encouraging info!! :rofl: ....but nevertheless, intriguing for sure.

.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Got today the Sun 700. The friction assembly on the fence with the gear is missing, but the drive cam has still its gear. The lock has an internal relocker which is held by the cover. And the cover has an arm which fits some external relocker. The lock has two contact points. Will post lock porn tomorrow.

PS: Gate width is 4 numbers. Quite a lot.

PPS: Left CP 96-97, Right CP 0-2.
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Friction-Fence Locks

Btw. are some of the (true) friction fence locks in Magic Module format?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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