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What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:03 pm
by L4R3L2
I have this in-floor safe waiting for me to pick up, but it'll be a while. In the mean time.......

Here are the photos I was provided. I was lucky to get a shot of the under side of the door before the seller went and locked the door in the safe (combo unknown) while answering my questions. Grrr. I thought, O.K. I can try to manipulate it any way. The outside looks like a typical S&G, with a typical spring fence type changing index position to the left of the opening index. I'm sure I can get it open......
Image

But, the photo of the under side has me wondering...
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This looks an awful lot like my S&G friction fence C87 lock (note the same shaped flat, brass case cover, and positions of the screws, change key hole, and indexing pin (across from the change key hole)). It looks like a match.....
Image

So, here's the thing. The C87 friction fence lock has the changing index to the right of the opening index on the dial, by necessity, like this....
Image

My questions are, did other S&G locks share the same lock case configuration during that period? Especially note the positions of the screws, change key hole, and single indexing pin. I'm hoping for a 6700-series type, spring fence lock here!
OR, is it more likely that someone installed a C87, while keeping the 6700-series type dial ring in place? (the diameters are compatible)

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:21 am
by Oldfast
L4R3L2 wrote:....before the seller went and locked the door in the safe (combo unknown) while answering my questions. Grrr.

Well I'd say the price just went down... way down :D

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:04 am
by L4R3L2
Oldfast wrote:
L4R3L2 wrote:....before the seller went and locked the door in the safe (combo unknown) while answering my questions. Grrr.

Well I'd say the price just went down... way down :D


It did! :D

He dropped the price below what he bought it for, which is really low. I told him that I'd send him the balance when (that may be "if", if it's a friction fence) I get it open, so at least he can break even.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:11 am
by Oldfast
Haha!

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:21 am
by mdc5150
Look at your change key indexes. The C87 has the change key index on the right side. The safe you just bought has the change key index on the left. I'm wondering if you don't have a 6735 there.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:31 am
by L4R3L2
mdc5150 wrote:Look at your change key indexes. The C87 has the change key index on the right side. The safe you just bought has the change key index on the left. I'm wondering if you don't have a 6735 there.


Well, that's what I'm wondering. Did the 6700 series locks (or one of their "C" predecessors) ever come with this same lock case design?

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:27 pm
by L4R3L2
Speaking of the 6735, here's an image of what is supposedly an M6735. What is the purpose of the "thumb" on the lever? It obviously engages the pin on the drive cam, but why? Does it aid in closing the bolt and lifting the lever? I don't understand the advantage.

Image

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:35 pm
by MartinHewitt
It helps closing the bolt.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:00 pm
by L4R3L2
MartinHewitt wrote:It helps closing the bolt.


I can see where it would reduce wear to the sides of the gates and fence, but were these used mainly in applications that required more force to close the bolt? Were these used mainly in locks that tied the lock bolt directly to the bolt works?

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:10 pm
by MartinHewitt
Hm. I see it mainly on older locks. Perhaps because they are larger and need to lock heavier bolts, but that is only a guess.

Here are some other locks with such a mechanism: viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12348

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:47 pm
by mdc5150
L4R3L2 wrote:
mdc5150 wrote:Look at your change key indexes. The C87 has the change key index on the right side. The safe you just bought has the change key index on the left. I'm wondering if you don't have a 6735 there.


Well, that's what I'm wondering. Did the 6700 series locks (or one of their "C" predecessors) ever come with this same lock case design?


The 6735 had the brass body like you have there and it had the old style fence like you see in a lot of older locks. The M6735 is just like the picture posted above.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:34 am
by L4R3L2
mdc5150 wrote:The 6735 had the brass body like you have there and it had the old style fence like you see in a lot of older locks. The M6735 is just like the picture posted above.


Thank you. I found an illustration of the M6730 that has a lock body with a single index pin just like the one on this safe. Now I'm feeling better about this. The old M6730/M6735 should manipulate just like a typical later model Group 2 6730, right?

BTW, your user name intrigues me. 5150 doesn't refer to the police code, does it? :shock: :D lol

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:37 am
by MartinHewitt
I don*t know how S&G makes the locks for supporting a number change on the opening index, but the change on the Kromer lock is (besides a moved change key hole) only a more complex back wheel (W1) which has a lever that pushes the fence out of the gate (and thereby the cam gate) when you turn the change key. I assume it is similar in S&G locks.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:17 am
by mdc5150
L4R3L2 wrote:
mdc5150 wrote:The 6735 had the brass body like you have there and it had the old style fence like you see in a lot of older locks. The M6735 is just like the picture posted above.


Thank you. I found an illustration of the M6730 that has a lock body with a single index pin just like the one on this safe. Now I'm feeling better about this. The old M6730/M6735 should manipulate just like a typical later model Group 2 6730, right?

BTW, your user name intrigues me. 5150 doesn't refer to the police code, does it? :shock: :D lol

Well it should manipulate fine. Being in a floor safe, and you have already seen the lock case you know the fence must be spring assisted. It's not direct entry so you should get contact points.

As for the name, it's a long story but I am a California refugee (I escaped that hell hole in 2004) and for a long time I was on the path to become a cop. I was in the explorers etc. I just needed a name here and that popped in my head.

Re: What am I getting myself into? Lock ID help, please

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm
by L4R3L2
mdc5150 wrote:Well it should manipulate fine. Being in a floor safe, and you have already seen the lock case you know the fence must be spring assisted. It's not direct entry so you should get contact points.

As for the name, it's a long story but I am a California refugee (I escaped that hell hole in 2004) and for a long time I was on the path to become a cop. I was in the explorers etc. I just needed a name here and that popped in my head.


Actually, the photos above with the blue background are of my friction fence C87. Apparently, S&G used similar cases for different locks, even though the insides have to be different between a friction fence and a spring fence lock. Probably only the cover is the common part.

I'm still in hell. The elected idiots keep finding ways to make it worse.