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Safe combination lock ID? SOLVED, look for me

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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:00 pm

Safe combination lock ID? SOLVED, look for me

IMG_20180919_175443.jpg
PART_1537340716019.jpeg
Does anyone recognise this old lock or know anything about it? Probably from 40s, 65 mm dial ring, 49 mm dial, 35 mm handle. Numbers go to 120, no gaps in numbers.
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Last edited by Jaakko Fagerlund on Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:55 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

Nope, never seen. Do you know what key lock it is? Could help.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

MartinHewitt wrote:Nope, never seen. Do you know what key lock it is? Could help.

Probably a Kromer Novum, judging from the size of the hole. Hard to say more before I open the combination lock, as it blocks the keyway with a small metal plate.

A friend of mine suggested that it might be made by Kaipio here in Finland (nowadays Kaso), it looks eerily familiar to their keyway cover locks. I'm now suspecting the same, as it has no ID, the door looks like it is made by Kaipio and the combination lock is "reprogrammed" by switching the position of the dial. Solid pins or something as flys, HUGE 35 number rotational difference when switching directions and apparently a spring pushing the fence down on the wheel pack as it clicks/snaps on some numbers.

Only had enough time to visit the client briefly and notice these, will be going back there on weekend to open it. Expect more photos :)
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Dean Thatcher

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Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

Hi

will be watching for pictures and more information.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:17 am

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

IMG_20180922_123759.jpg


Identified, well, sort of. The vault door had a makers sign on the inside surface. It was model 1900 x 900, #268 made by Kassakaappi Oy with the brand name KASO (which later would be their new name). Owner of the place said that it is from the very late 40's or early 50's, even got to talk with a now retired employee of the bank that was there tens of years ago.

IMG_20180922_135600.jpg


The lock itself had no ID, but I suspect it is their own make. Very interesting approach with the fixed "fly" pins, they contact the next wheel from a slot in the wheel. Explains why the reversal of dialing had roughly a 35 number difference, as the slot goes around the whole wheel and stops just before the gate area. Gravity driven fence with a roller on the end, MASSIVE piece of brass. Once the numbers were correct, the cam being the shape of a spiral just turned from my sensitive touch to a solid stop. Was like WTF is going on and then realised it was open.

IMG_20180922_134043.jpg


Door handle turned with a nice clunk sound and when firmly pulled, you could hear air rushing with a very slow "woooosh". Beatiful, just beatiful. The inside mechanism had had two relockers, but the firing mechanism and cables had been removed and the relocker bolts welded in place, probably when the bank closed its operation there. Why, I have no idea, and also why they didn't leave the key to the next owner.

The key lock that had been left open would have been nicely picked, 7 levers, no false gates, individual springs on each lever. The shape & size of the key that was not there looked a bit like Kromer Novum, but the lock itself looks like selfmade, probably done inhouse at the same factory as the door.

IMG_20180923_001510.jpg
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

I think I got your description of the lock. There is the drive cam which has one side like a spiral so the gravity fence can be lowered softly down and pushed up. Then in the first three wheels are pins which encode the combination and connect a wheel to the next wheel. The "fly" of the next wheel is the wide edge of the gate.

Is the key lock a true double-bitted lock,i.e. it would work even with broken springs? Or is it fake and the key interacts only on one side? Kromer has exported their Novum early on. Perhaps it had a good name and Kaso (good that they changed their name) tried to visually copy it?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:23 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

The key lock seems to not be the kind that has double acting cuts. So if a spring fails, the lock will not work with a key. With a pick you probably could operate the lock to open still.

I dug an old 7 cut Kromer Novum key, it fits in but the end is too thick for the bolt and thus it doesn't fit to turn in the lock. So something similar regarding profile size, but with differing cuts.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

Not sure if somebody pointed this out yet, but ... Great work! And ...

MORE! MORE! MORE!


.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:53 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

MartinHewitt wrote:Not sure if somebody pointed this out yet, but ... Great work! And ...

MORE! MORE! MORE!


.

Heh, thank you! :) That little smile in the first photo was not just for the camera, I was smiling so much of the rush and joy I got the combination lock dialed open as it was a lock I had newer even seen or had no understanding how it behaves, so completely learning while on the job. Not the first time though, had a little "shield" combination lock previously with the same dilemma but got that too open.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:11 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

I thought this guy was happy that you had let him out of the vault.

Did you do a standard manipulation? Was the right contact point readable well?

I found it quite helpful with unknown key locks to have a endoscope and be able to look inside. That makes it very easy to make a correct tool for tensioning the bolt. Of course it doesn't help with combination locks that easily.
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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Post Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:33 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

Wow, what a truly interesting lock. Well done sir... well done!
Definitely appreciate the pics and explanations with it. Thank you.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

MartinHewitt wrote:I thought this guy was happy that you had let him out of the vault.

Did you do a standard manipulation? Was the right contact point readable well?

I found it quite helpful with unknown key locks to have a endoscope and be able to look inside. That makes it very easy to make a correct tool for tensioning the bolt. Of course it doesn't help with combination locks that easily.

Haha, yeah, who let that bearded man escape :D

It was "standard" up to a point, as I knew this lock was "strange" and the only similar lock I have fits in the palm of your hand and is quiet. This, on the other hand, gave some nice clicks and dings when turning the whole wheelpack AWL or AWR but on differing numbers. Jotted those down, did my usual cross reference table and was sure of a combination. Turned out to be bogus, but one number on wheel #2 was correct as confirmed by doing AWL and then turning the other way listening for sounds.

So, used that and guessed a number or before a known click point for wheels #1 and #3 and finally found the drop-in number. It was being masked by the other wheels. Didn't even start trying to manipulate as normal in terms of contact point reading, just dialed what I knew up till thst point to be interesting and found that the drop in felt much more pronounced with certain number on wheel #1.

Got maybe 3rd of the way through wheel #3 when the dial practicslly spun from my fingers to a solid stop and spooked me a little as the thunder clack in my headphones was still ringing. After a few seconds realised thst it had opened, turned the handle, confirmed door movement and called the owner on scene.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID?

Oh and as for the keylocks, I do have couple of scopes, but the most used is 2.7 x 175 mm 70 degree, fits inside almost all keylocks to do visual checks and decoding. Fortunately now the keylock had been left open.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:04 pm

Re: Safe combination lock ID? SOLVED, look for me

A to small drive cam can be really confusing. The first and so far only lock where I had this (actually it is about the same size) made me think it is borken.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Location: Finland

Post Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:37 am

Re: Safe combination lock ID? SOLVED, look for me

Martin, good to know such locks do exist, though haven't yet come across one, luckily.

I checked my notes and it seems it took me 5 hours to get to know my opponent and open it. I consider th7s a success in terms of learning on the fly :)
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