1st Manipulation Ward 9007 safe on hold in learning curve

[Fritz the Cat]

My son brought home a Montgomery Ward's Safe 9007 . His friend has had this safe in his family for 3 decades not knowing whats inside , the combination had been lost (ie a slip of paper)
I get to keep the Safe if I can open it up. I would like to give thanks to the members of this website for inspiring me . Ths thread actually started in Oldfasts thread on Laser rigs where I found out the difference between A Sentry and Wards safe.

This being my first manipulation I would welcome any suggestions to help walk me thru this. Heres a is an attemp at my first manipulation chats and a pic of the safe . The first chart is a graph of all 3 wheels . The second graph t a high low test with 20 as the second number .I think...

[bitbuster]

Good luck with the opening. You'll get the safe but not the silver bars inside. The following link is to the same safe on a local CL. I find it very amusing what the seller says about the imitation 6709 lock....."Once you see how the combo works.........." I know this is for manipulation, but the seller doesn't realize the tiny hole needed for a destructive cam punch entry and how easy that is. Your safe's DIP is around 95. Driver is in front.
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 49886.html

[Fritz the Cat]

I see something there . I'm a total newbi but what does "DIP" @95 mean ?

Drop in point {PM}

[Oldfast]

@bitbuster... Yeah, lol... and I'm sure you've already seen it,
but here's a slight variance on the drill/punch attack on the cam.

So Fritz, I wanna tryn' help here, but I need to first get clear on your graphs.
I'm either looking at them wrong or you have numbered the CP's backwards.

A 'good/low' reading is when the right & left CP's get closer together.
For example; your CP's read 98 & 10. Your next reading is 99 & 9.

A 'bad/high' reading will be when the two Contact Points get further apart.
Example; CP's go from 98 & 10 to 97 & 11. The contact points have widened.

So the variation you have at 20... I'm not sure if I'm looking at a peak or valley (high or low).
If I look only at the lines your graphing produced, I see a low, good reading, CP's narrow.
However, if I look at how you've numbered the CP's, then it's a bad reading. CP's widen.

Also, you determined 20 was w2. Then you did your 2nd graph. What's the wheel action here?

[Fritz the Cat]

Sorry for the messy graphs . I thought in all fairness I'd show my first graph warts and all.
I could re do them but then I can present the next graph with more neatness. Forging ahead.

OK now to describe the wheel action for graph 2. I don't know if its correct but here it is
the Left contact graph I marked RC*. All wheels right to 0 then left to the 3rd 20 turn right to read left contact at 98.5 . For right contact , all wheels left to 0 then right to the third 20 turn left to read right contact at 10. next all wheels left to 2.5 and onwards . I'm still unsure somewhat whats happening. I also did all the rc points then did the lc points as it seemed quicker.

What should I do next ? Should I redo the graph ? I did chart 1 over again . Looks about the same but the Right contact points graph is reversed . Going to "amplify" At 20 - 22 , 65 ,pehaps 90 (low confidense with this nuber).

Is it toearly to try combonations out ?

[bitbuster]

OLDFAST: .....and there's no hole to plug!

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

OK now to describe the wheel action for graph 2. I don't know if its correct but here it is
the Left contact graph I marked RC*. All wheels right to 0 then left to the 3rd 20 turn right to read left contact at 98.5 . For right contact , all wheels left to 0 then right to the third 20 turn left to read right contact at 10. next all wheels left to 2.5 and onwards . I'm still unsure somewhat whats happening. I also did all the rc points then did the lc points as it seemed quicker.

Don't change your dialing directions, keep them constant. Now you have mixed L & R for the same wheels in the same graph.

[Oldfast]

Wheel movement; what wheel(s) I'm currently moving, at what positions I left the others,
knowing exactly where I'm at within the wheel pack at all times, etc. - this is something
that I struggled with for some time. I would get 'lost' easily. It took me a good deal of
time and effort before it became natural and I could visualize what was going on.

Given that you may not be entirely familiar with movement yet, I'd say you're actually
doing half way decent. And your graphs; although they may not make complete sense
to ME... as long as YOU understand them... that's all that really matters.

Attempting to learn manipulation through cracking your first locked safe is certainly
not the smoothest transition, lol. Don't get me wrong. When I see this, I never dis-
courage it. My hats off to you. I get it! It's an exciting challenge. And by the way,
it's not impossible. I've seen it successfully done several times here on the forum.

However, this poses a very unique challenge on both ends. For you seeking advice
as well as anyone trying to offer it. People must attempt to draw definitive conclusions
based off the data you've collected. And you will likely have a difficult time interpreting
and/or carrying out any suggestions given. Fact is, until you've done your homework,
there's only so much anyone can do for you.

All that said... what the hell?! I want you to be able to take this safe home for free!
Based solely on the papers you've presented, I'm going to draw some conclusions
and throw out some thoughts. Take it all with a grain of salt though!

1. Your 2nd graph; to be frank Fritz - scrap it. The wheel action used to produce it
is sketchy, at best. Not to mention, it reveals no additional information that your 1st
graph has not already shown you.

2. This is probably not the best advice for someone just starting out, but in your case
I think it may help simplify things. From now on skip on reading the LCP. Instead,
take readings only from the the RCP. Remember, you turn left (counter-clockwise)
to touch the right contact point @ approximately 10 on this lock.

3. The variation you have around 20. According to how you've set up & numbered
your graph - this area is not showing a low (which would suggest a gate). Instead,
this is a high reading. A peak, very likely produced by the 'tab' on the outer edge
of the wheel that I mentioned to you in the other thread.

But what wheel does this peak @ 20 belong to? I'm betting w1. Here's why.
Your low test (although flawed) suggests w1. And on your 2nd graph (no,
you don't have to dig it back out of the trash, lol)... Best I can make of it is
that you've basically ran (isolated) wheel 1 while parking 2&3 @ 20. The
fact that the peak around 20 showed up also seems to suggest wheel 1.

So here's my best half-assed guess for your next course of action.

First, run and graph all wheel right once more through the area of 20 so you
can see exactly how wide this peak spans. Then select true center of it. You
may find it to be 19, 20, 21, 22, etc. Whatever it is, add 50 to land you directly
opposite... that's approximately where the gate is for wheel 1. So if you find
the center of the peak to be 21, then the gate for w1 is @ RIGHT 71.
This is the first number of your combination. R71 - L? - R?

Now setup for your next graph: Park w1 @ R71... run 2&3 together around LEFT.
Be CERTAIN your rotations are correct for this. 4X RIGHT to 71 will place all three
wheels at 71. Now turn 2X LEFT. The second time you approach 71 you will have
picked up both wheels 2&3. Your first reading will be taken at 72.5. Then 75, 77.5,
80, etc.

Get it open and take it home my friend!

[Fritz the Cat]

Thank you very much . I'm making a pot of coffee , fluff out my chair and sharpen some pencils to stary grqphing

This will take a while . I'll be back .

I'm reading your safe cronicals thread. Good stuff .

I did a graph and the center is 20 at this time . Getting a little better at reading contact points .

Question after turning left 2x to 71 I turn R to 72.5 then left to about 10 and take reading ?

I'mjust coming up with a straight line @ L to 10.

okI tried again and I think I got a good graph . There is a vally at 20 and it shows only on the left contact line .The R line is basicaly straight .
I'll upload the graph
70 20 xx ??
I'm going to do some more homework

[Oldfast]

I did a graph and the center is 20 at this time . Getting a little better at reading contact points .

Ok. Good. So after confirming the center of this peak is 20, we'll assume for now the gate is 70.

Question after turning left 2x to 71 I turn R to 72.5 then left to about 10 and take reading ?

No, no. Remember, you want to approach 70 with RIGHT ROTATION.

And I just realized I gave you incorrect number of rotations.
When I said 2X LEFT to 72.5.... I should have said 3X.
Shit, I'm sorry about that. Hope it didn't cost you too much
frustration or time. I always forget I count differently.

Let me clarify the 'standard' way of counting number of turns:

*EACH time the number comes under the opening index is counted as 1X.
So after dialing RIGHT 4X to 70, you switch directions and start turning LEFT....
72.5 will come under the index almost immediately. Be sure to count that as 1X.

Here, step-by-step:

The objective for this next graph is to place w1 @ RIGHT 70, then leave it there
while you push wheels 2&3 together around LEFT taking readings every 2.5 incs.

4X RIGHT to 70
3X LEFT to 72.5

From here turn RIGHT to about 5. This places you within the contact area.
Now simply turn LEFT to approach the RCP (about 10) and take your reading.

After taking your reading, continue LEFT passed 72.5 to 75.
Then go RIGHT to about 5. And LEFT to take your reading.

LEFT to 77.5... RIGHT to 5... LEFT to take reading.

LEFT to 80... RIGHT to 5... LEFT to take reading. Etc. Etc.

Work your way around. Last reading will be @ 67.5

p.s. I'd still like to see your latest graph. Even if you think it's wrong.

[Fritz the Cat]

I'm having fun . I'm 64 "retired" and this is a lot better that crosswords .Its really a good mental exercise. 2 graphs coming up with a picture of my current setup.
Going to follow your instructions.

Its crystal clear I got it now (I think)

Another pot of coffee to get me going..

[Oldfast]

I've really enjoyed following along and I'm anxious to see what you come up with next.
Obviously, I hope some of my thoughts pan out for ya... but they could also just as
easily be sending you down the rabbit hole, lol. But if you're having fun, great!!

You'll also notice with time, as you become familiar with wheel movement -
investigating something doesn't take too much time. You can quickly decide
whether it's worth pursuing, putting on the back-burner, or disregarding it.
But for now, each decision is usually followed by an all out graphing session.

Anyway, it excites me to hear you're really enjoying yourself and having fun.

Hope to see some new material tonight

[Fritz the Cat]

I lost the last graphs , they were wrong but still indicating baround 20
. But I followed your instructions and this graph went faster as I now how to "bounce " back and forth in the contact area . And another pic of the safe on the RCP . I'm using a pin stuck in some wax as it reads better.
The readings are harder to take just a couple 1/4 marks at most.Its not like measuring the flash plastic opposite 70 . I tried an nmechanics steathascope on the safe with minor sucess . A quit room is good enough.

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

You also seem to have clear indications near 75 and 90, so I would pursue those on the other wheels more closely once you know what wheel that 20 is on.

[Oldfast]

Hmmm. If we correctly tagged the peak @ 20 from your 1st graph to wheel 1...
that peak should not have shown up in this graph while moving only wheels 2&3.

Makes me wonder if we incorrectly identified w1 as the owner?

And as Jaakko spotted, there are some new peaks at about 74 and 92. IF these were
produced from tabs... the gates would be at approximately 24 and 42. But I would first
re-focus on tagging the peak @ 20 to the correct wheel. If you park them all at 20, then
move each wheel away from it one at a time... when does that peak/bad reading go away?

...and the plot thickins.