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First lock spinning

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tarboxb

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Open in 77 minutes is damn impressive! I'm going to need to pick one of these up and put a hole in the back cover like you said!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:33 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I don't know the 3332. From the little I found it seems to be built like a 1985 (Group 1). I can't manipulate that one. Looks similar to the 3390, but feels very differently. The 3332 on youtube makes a click when dialed slowly. My 1985 doesn't do this. So maybe the 3332 is different from the 1985 which makes it a Group 2M instead of a Group 1. With the 3332 you might succeed or fail. At least the mechanism in the 3332/1985 allows viewing the operation with the cover removed. The 3390 needs a hole in the cover, because without the cover it basically falls apart.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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tarboxb

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:14 pm

Re: First lock spinning

That all makes sense. There is a safe I attempted to manipulate for someone that feels and sounds like a 3332 based on my research. I would like to buy one to play with. Looking at pictures of the 3332 and 3390 I see that the 3332 has a spring mechanism whereas the 3390 does not. As you said, it looks a lot like a group 1. I know most of the S&G style 2m locks just have false gates and an eccentric roller whicu requires many repeated indications to get anything useful but they seem much easiser to manipulate than the 3332. I personally doubt it's possible without some kind of audio frequency analysis. In theory the frequency should vary depending on which wheel the fencr strikes as the lever is dropped.
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dimitar425

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:22 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Soory for the late update ive been on a holiday. Today i a few hours to run and i got pretty frustrated. Here are the results however i couldn't identify a clear gate. My thoughts are on 4 and 94 shall i do high/low for both of them or amplify?
20180729_171721.jpg
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: First lock spinning

What did you graph on this sheet? Again an AWL? You should write on all sheets what you have done including all rotational directions.If this is again, perhaps on this lock with this combination every gate is hidden in AWL and none will show. From your first graphs it looks to me the mountain around 65 seems to come from W3 (i.e. the wheel for the last number in the combination, if I interpret the "W3 - L 50" on your sheet correctly).

PS: From your first two graphs, which I guess are:
1) AWL
2) W1&W2 right and W3 left at 50
At 75 seems to be a low spot for W1/W2. I would put W1/W2 at R75 and then scan W3 left.

PPS: Manipulation is for the standard locks mostly about acquiring a strategy.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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chieflittlehorse

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:08 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I really need to start practicing safe manipulation. For a month I was practicing getting the combination by looking thru the change key hole.

I could get the numbers for the third and second wheel only but then that's it, I'm stuck.

I have the ilco unican safe lock on a mount at work so that's how I practice.

I still need to do some more studying on this.

We had this Gardall safe at work but the factory combination didn't work so I going up and down a few numbers but nothing.

I even dial the numbers in different orders in case the factory had a typo or something, still nothing.

So a few days later I went back to the safe and a thought came to my head. Maybe it's set to one number.

I tried 25 and nothing, tried 50 and it opened.

I think the owners must of forgot they had set it to one number.

The only reason I thought about this was a previous safe company I worked at used to do this to make it easy for them to show customers the interior of the safes quickly.

CLH!
You leave my GRAPHITE alone!!!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: First lock spinning

When you already know second and third wheel it is just trying all numbers for the first wheel until open. So. e.g. second and third number are 23 and 45, then you dial 0-23-45, 2.5-23-45, 5-23-45, ... until open or at least a good drop of the lever.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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dimitar425

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I ain't ready to give up... Did as you said but did not get anything promising.
20180729_191328.jpg


Edit: Sorry for spelling mistakes
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:31 pm

Re: First lock spinning

If you see opening a lock as a process to find the gates, then there was nothing promising. If you see opening a lock as the process to optimize the wheel positions for the lowest point of the lever, then we have improved, because we know the lowest area in W3 is around 24.

I would do a graph of W1 around left every 10 numbers with W2 at R75 and W3 at L24 to locate the lowest position in W1. This information helps to improve on W2 and W3 until a gate shows up.

PS: You obviously can also do a full scan of W1, but dialing W1 is "expensive", so I'd like to make sure it is worth the effort.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:44 am

Re: First lock spinning

I definitely agree with Martin Hewitt. When things go perfectly it is two, sometimes even one graph. One to find the first gate, one to find the second, and then bruteforcing for an opening. This rarely happens. Many times you will nees to use areas which are simply low areas or possible gates and keep working wheels to continue to find lower and lower areas. If the contact area is getting narrow you are getting closer! Eventually when 2 of the three wheels are out of the way enough, be it on low areas or on gates the other one will give a clear graph and will show its gate very clearly. Just keep working the fence deeper and deeper and unless a gate signature is extremely clear do not decide matter of factlt you have a gate but simply treat it as a low spot for facilitating future findings and come back to it later with other wheels in better positions to try to confirm it as a gate. It seems like you're making progress! Stick with it and you will get it open!
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jharveee

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Post Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:18 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I have never spun the type of lock you have. Is it an ILCO 67P? Similar to the one in Oldfasts Safe chronicles, Manipulation #18. Maybe you could use some of the techniques Oldfast tried? It seems odd to me that your contact points are so far apart? Left side (2), Right side (14). Is there a middle contact point in there somewhere?
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jharveee

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Post Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:11 pm

Re: First lock spinning

"ilco unican lock which came with a locked safe which i bought at a sale"
So this is a real safe. Do you know why the owner was selling it? Lost combo or maybe it had an issue? Was it working fine before the sale? Can we get a better picture of the safe?
Which way do you think the lock is mounted?(VU, VD, RH, LH). All wheels picking up properly? You say 3 wheels, how are the flys? learning manipulation on a perfectly mounted practice lock can take some time. Trying to manipulate a safe that has a problem could go either way, it may fall open or more likely NOT.
Of coarse I want you to be able to manipulate this open. Have you manipulated any other safe locks successfully?
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dimitar425

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Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:43 am

Re: First lock spinning

Martin, i did what you told me to make im sill left clueless on how to continue. Ill be reading more posts on the forum to get to know everything better.
20180729_202417.jpg


Since you asked guys ill share more back story about the safe. The safe is bought from a company. The CEO of the company has died years ago and since then it stayed open. Nobody knew the code of it and someone accidently gave it a spin and locking the safe. Now the firm went bankrupt and they are throwing/selling everything they had. I have
I have never manipulated a safe before it is my first attempt. I do lock picking as a hobby in my free time.
Edit: I'll post a full picture of the safe as soon as possible the model is Alfa TL-0
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jharveee

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Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Thanks for sharing, sounds like you'll end up with a nice safe after you get it opened up. In the past I've purchased a couple of "Grandpa's old safes" that ended up being very frustrating to practice on. Looking forward to seeing the insides of your safe. While at the shop I will see if we have literature on your safe.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: First lock spinning

dimitar425 wrote:Martin, i did what you told me to make im sill left clueless on how to continue.

Remember you want to get down. First of all, your left contact point (that around 2) is strange. The left contact point can be helpful, but it is normally less helpful than the right contact point due to the asymmetry of the drive cam gate. It is not strictly necessary to use the left contact point. So in your case I would ignore it for now and plan the next steps without it. So we now know a low area for W1 is around 90. You can make more fine measurements in the range of 85 to 95 (or 80 to 100) so see if it get's any lower. Then I would use the middle of the lowest area for W1.

So we have L90 or thereabout for W1 and R72.5 for W2 as the lowest areas. With this information we can rescan W3: L90-R72.5-L???. Maybe this will reveal a gate or it will allow to find a better spot for W3 to rescan W2 (range 65 to 100) and W1 (range 80 to 100 or even full range to look for a gate).

dimitar425 wrote:... and someone accidently gave it a spin and locking the safe.

This is not uncommon. Had a similar case here myself. Safe had key lock and combination lock and was used only with the key while the combination lock stayed unlocked. Then one day after the original owner had passed away the new owner turned the dial ... "Luckily" the new owner remembered a possible combination which indeed was the combination, but he just didn't manage to open the lock without help.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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