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First lock spinning

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dimitar425

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:34 pm

First lock spinning

Hi guys i've been on safe manipulation for a while. I've been following oldfast's chronicles but i feel like i'm going nowhere.
I have graphed and i want a piece of advice what to do next i think i ain't doing something right.
I only know that it's a 3 wheel ilco unican lock which came with a locked safe which i bought at a sale.
20180706_192306.jpg

I made the graphs every 2.5
20180716_163016.jpg

High & low tests showed it's wheel 3
Now i ran it with 3rd wheel at 50
20180716_162040.jpg


I believe it's ?-75-50 i didn't have enough time to look at the third number however i believe it's wrong looking by looking at the first graph

Any suggestions are welcomed. Thanks in advance
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: First lock spinning

The areas you have chosen are IMHO to wide for a gate. 87.5 on your second graph does look to me more like a gate. I would make an graph like the second at 85/86.25/87.5/88.75/90 to see if it looks even more like a gate. Then I would either use the located gate or 72.5/75 from the second graph (AWR for W1 and W2?) and do with this a scan of W3.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:20 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Hello dimitar425 and welcome to the forum! Lock manipulation is my favorite locksmithing sub category and I do a lot of it! I would say that you're on the right track but I will say that I have my doubts there is a gate at 50 in the first graph. An area that is so wide is rarely (though it could be) a gate. What you are really looking for is generally a fairly tight, say 5 numbers at most dip that quickly falls into and out of itself. In some cases you will see a rapid drop off and then the graph will stay level for a while. This is also often a gate. Similarly when you see a level graph for a while and then a sudden increase that can also sometimes signal a gate. The clearest signature is level, then rises briefly, then falls sharply, stays low for 2-3 numbers and then bumps back up for another high spot before lowering slightly and leveling again. When you aren't getting any very clear gate signatures, which in my opinion you are not you need to simply go from what you have and move forward to eventually get a gate. You need to understand that the goal is essentially to get the fence deeper and deeper into the wheel pack until it eventually enters fully and the lock can open. Knowing this it is fairly easy to find a logical way to proceed without any solid gate signatures. What I would advise you do is find a low area, keeping in mind that most likely that is all it is and use it to help you more accurately measure the other wheels. Do your high/low testing and determine which wheel the low area is on and then move the other two together. In this case the low area looks to be centered around 0 so I would just use that for the time being. A few other things: you are indicating in 1/4s which is far too large of an increment to indicate in. I advise you indicate in 1/8s minimum. I indicate in 1/10s like Oldfast does. Also, you are taking measurements every 2.5 increments. This is what nearly everyone does. That said, in my opinion taking readings every 2 increments is far better. You are almost guaranteed to avoid skipping over a gate doing this and you only have to do 50 indications per revolution instead of 40. This is another thing I got from Oldfast. One last thing and this is a big one... When I first started out my biggest issue was unreliable high/low tests. If you aren't 100% confident about a high low test then it will cause you a lot of headache. The best method in my opinion, again an Oldfast method is to make sure you dial all your test combinations in the same direction you found the initial gate. I use the method of kicking a wheel off the number. For example, say I find a "gate" at L35 running all wheels left. What I would do at this point is come back around right and kick wheel 3 off the gate to around R25. Now I will come back around left and move W3 to L30 and check for the gate signature. If it is gone then I know the gate is on wheel 3. If not I will go around right and move wheels 2 and 3 to R25 and then come back around left and move them both to L30 and check again, now if the gate is gone I know it is on wheel 2. If not, I know it is on wheel 1. Does that make sense? That method is fast and extremely effective. One last last thing. :P If you don't get anything useful from one graph, try to do the same thing going the other way around. In many cases the slight difference in wheel alignment relative to each other as well as the difference due to slop in the wheels and wheel post will cause different information to show up with a different rotation direction. This may be a good way to proceed as well at this point is another all wheels rotation in the other direction. Good luck and keep at it! You will get it open and I will help!
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:22 pm

Re: First lock spinning

By the way, I just had a look at the area pointed out by Martin and I'm in agreement that that is likely a gate! I definitely suggest you use the above mentioned high low testing method as well as taking more readings and with greater detail. I think those three tips will help you out more than anything else.
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:25 pm

Re: First lock spinning

One more tip, the first gate you find is often not quite exactly where you think it is. Once you find another gate go back and check the first one with the second one in position. You will likely find that its center isn't quite where you originally thought. This can sometimes keep the lock from opening when you run the last wheel around for the opening.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I never did smaller steps than 2.5 for general scanning and I had never a problem with this. A gate has a width of at least 1.5, but to see the gate it is not necessary to hit exactly the gate area. The lever will also drop lower next to it.

I guess, that 1/4th increment is the minimum for this lock and it is possible to open the lock, but 1/8th would certainly better on this one. If it is 1/8th or 1/10th IMHO doesn't matter. It is more depending on how you can read the dial and the sheet you have in front of you. I find it easier to read 1/8th. Mark at a digit is 0/8th, directly between two digits is 4/8th, between digit and between two digits is 2/8th and 6/8th and slightly left and right of these positions are the remaining 1/8ths. There are locks where 1/8th is barely enough and reading should be done in 1/16th, but this is not one of these.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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dimitar425

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:39 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Thank you for the many responses guys i'll start a new graph with 1/8 every 2 as soon as i escape from work and i'll hope for more clear results. I will keep this post updated.
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:08 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Sounds good! I'm excited to work with you to get this thing open! One more thing is that once you have found a "gate" I highly recommend going through the area again every increment and trying to find the center as accurately as possible before tagging it to a wheel. If you haven't already check out The Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation. It's a great read with a lot of helpful information in it!
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tarboxb

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:10 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Martin, what locks would you read in 16ths? I manipulated a Yale OC-5 reading in 10ths and only got a 10th or so indication for a gate. Would that be one of them? Also, I am just throwing this out as conjecture but I would be willing to bet this is a Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 lock. What are your thoughts on that Martin?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I have never seen an OC-5. It is just not available here in Germany. I do need the 1/16th for the LG 3390.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Another candidate is the Kromer 3011/3012 which have lathe turned wheel packs. Did so far only make one AWL and it looked like a flat line.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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tarboxb

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:40 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Hey Martin, I thought the 3390 was a group 2M. How can you manipulate that with the "tomahawk?" If you have found a way I would love to hear it! I don't have any and haven't gotten a chance to play with one but I thought from reading different posts that the only way that "might" work would be frequency analysis.
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Gratefuldeadbolt

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Tarboxb - you are correct from what I read on the 3390 info page here:

https://www.dormakaba.com/gb-en/solutio ... 390-268024

I would be interested in hearing more about graphing this to 1/16th in order to open, but that would have to be a separate thread so we keep this one on the original topic.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: First lock spinning

Group 2M which means "probably more than 2 hours, but certainly not 10 hours". That means, there is a known method to manipulate it.

The 3390 has indeed contact points. They are different and more difficult to read than in normal group 2 locks. The person trying to manipulate a 3390 should understand how the FLCD works and with this information feel the contact points. Telling someone about the contact points is probably not that helpful.

If you want to discuss more about the 3390, there is e.g. viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12507
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 198

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: First lock spinning

I will definitely have a look at that! What about the 3332? Is that one able to be done too? I should just go and buy one to practice on. I really want to learn how to open them.
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