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UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:20 pm
by MartinHewitt
Can someone enlighten me on this lock format? It seems to be a standard format without a standard name. Or perhaps it is called ACE lock? There are Walsall locks, S2, S5, etc.. Due to the Ratner which has quite good levers it seems to be an old format. Maybe one company started and other lock manufacturers copied the format?

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:06 pm
by MartinHewitt
Photos from a Willenhall CT12 and a Lowe & Fletcher 2802. Screw centers on the short side are about 1 3/4 inch (44.3mm) appart, on the long side roughly 2 9/16 inch (65.3mm). They exist also with the bolt on the short side.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:39 am
by huxleypig
I make a universal tool for these locks. There are many, many variations of this lock (I have access to 14 I think) and whilst they seemingly look the same as each other, there are subtle differences like key diameter and bolt-throwing area on the key.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:11 am
by MartinHewitt
Do you need to change parts on the tool to make it universal or is it one thing and you can stick in every lock?

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:30 am
by huxleypig
You can just shove it in but with some you have to make sure you keep backwards tension, so the gates line up. The tension tip changes to take up the slack on the roomier ones.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:26 pm
by rphillips52
As far as I know, the basic design started with Willenhall Locks, until they stopped making making locks, and ceased trading ... . The design has been copied since, notably L&F, in numerous variants over the years, as mentioned above.
There must be tens of thousands of them up and down Britain on drugs cabinets in hospitals etc., and so many other secure cabinets. A latching version was used on the lockers for official documents in vehicle testing stations.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:02 pm
by MartinHewitt
There are also Yale locks of this type.

Btw. does this lock type have a name? Something where I could go to a safe shop, ask for it and the sales guy pulls out whatever model he has?

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:01 pm
by Visitor
My suppliers just call them standard or economy safe locks. They are usually less than £15 each if that helps.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:32 pm
by MartinHewitt
Yup. Thanks.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:11 pm
by rphillips52
Martin, you might like to see this article:
https://www.lasm.co.uk/2014/11/12/willenhall-ct12/
There is a decoder which works well. It appeared long after I retired, but maybe a working locksmith here could supply details if you wish to buy.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:20 pm
by MartinHewitt
The CT12 was the first lock of this type I got. Ratlock was so nice to give it to me. I do like this lock type because of its compact and simple form and rather good materials - steel and brass.

Are you referring to a CT12 decoder? A video for the LF 2802 decoder is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJInitE0piM . The information there is actually enough to build one, but I am sure I will never find one here in Germany in the wild.

I am a bit puzzled why some locks have uniform bellies and some not. At least one of these standard locks (don't remember the model) has a uniform belly, most don't. Many of the EN1300/magic module locks have uniform bellies, but also many not. My theory is that it has to do with precision, perhaps reliability and lock format. I.e. non-uniform bellies allow cheaper lock production and/or building of locks which are less prone to failure after a lot of usage and it is more difficult to make uniform bellies the smaller the lock is. But this is just a theory and there are really strange locks, e.g. the LF 3007 and 3010 are of nearly identical construction, but the "more secure" 3010 has non-uniform bellies and the "less secure" 3007 has uniform bellies. In the end there is the same security with different stickers.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:09 pm
by MartinHewitt
Is the 9-lever S2 from Walsall and also a standard lock? Does it look internally exactly like a CT12 & Co.?

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:00 am
by Visitor
Different bellies were tried to thwart belly reading. As there are not too many rules governing what features these cheap locks should have many manufacturers often try/tried different methods to stop openings without the supplied keys.
You can find slightly different design changes even on the same locks.

The cheap double bitted locks also open with a simular tool.

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:24 pm
by MartinHewitt
The best method to prevent belly reading is to have uniform bellies. So far in all cases non-uniform bellies made opening for me easier. (I know only one exception, where the belly form had a real purpose.)

Re: UK lock type: L&F 2802, Willenhall CT12, Ratner etc.

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:55 am
by huxleypig
So that tool that reads the lever bellies and decodes them to either 'high' or 'low'; it only works on a few of the cheaper ones, most of this type of lock will not be decoded so easily.

My tool is a really easy-to-use calibrated pick combined with a make-up key. So you pick the lock and as you go you read off the heights and place the appropriate height pins into the make-up key. You can do 1 lever at a time if you like but it is quicker to pick into false set and then read the heights and make up the key. Yes, it will go straight into anti-pick but you can very easily now determine which lever is the in a real gate and which lever is in a false gate. You don't need to worry about tension because the make-up key is keeping everything in place so you can back off tension as you please. Indeed, you can often find a false gate, lift it with the pick and then apply tension and the lock will open.

It is a most exemplary tool and is universal to all this type of lock. One day every locksmith will have one...one day...