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Martin Hewitt's Questions

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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:46 am

Martin Hewitt's Questions

I think it makes sense to open a thread for my detail questions where (it seams) nobody has an answer. In case I find an answer I will update my post.

Martin hewitt
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:49 am

Difference La Gard 1985 and 3390?

What is the difference between a La Gard 1985 and a La Gard 3390 which makes the first a group 1 and the second a 2M? On photos of the internals they look very similar. Both seem to have the fence lever control device aka tomahawk. (Patent US4756176) I would like to understand why one is 1 and the other 2M.

Answer: The mechanism is the same, but the manufacturing quality of the 1985 is better. I.e. the fence lever control device, its cam pin and the cam are made of metal. An additional difference is that the cam radius around the cam gate is smaller. This mean that the FLCD is pulling down the lever outside the cam gate, but the lever nose is still not getting in contact with the cam.
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:51 am

Difference S&G FAS 6880 and 6890?

What is the difference between a S&G GAS 6880 and a 6890 which makes one a EN1300 class B and the other a class C? Both have 9 levers and use the same key. From I quick glance I did not recognize a difference. I will look tomorrow more closely. So perhaps I have then the answer.

1. Ad.: I put both next to each other. I really cannot see any significant difference. The direction of the levers was different, but the 6880 was certainly opened before and I am not sure of the direction (left/right) or the spring was the original order. Probably this does not make any real difference anyway. It might be that the levers have a better precision in the 6890, but I can't really see this. It might also be that it is just a marketing issue.
Last edited by MartinHewitt on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:59 am

Why so many S&G combination lock models?

This is probably not a technical, but a marketing question. I do not understand why they have so many models. E.g. there are three different mechanisms sold to protect group I locks. (The 8410 with the small twisting knob. The 8550 with the push dial. The 6430 or so with the wider lever and the bar at the tip.) And there are zillion other variants. The vault locks with a completely different layout. The a bit less secure locks with the silver lever. The radiological protected locks. ... This must make the production more expensive. So why not cut it down?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Post Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:22 pm

Why works the Kromer 3011 combination lock without change in

The Kromer 3011 doesn't have a change index, but is changed on the normal index. On locks like the S&G 6730 the lever would fall into the cam gate. Why does it work with the Kromer?

Answer: Here the answer together with the question, because when I disassembled it I saw the difference. The first wheel of the Kromer has a lever, which is pushed out to cover the wheel gate, when the change key is turned. It is a nice convenience mechanism, but I believe the weight distribution of the wheel is more imbalanced with this lever.

This lock oozes quality. The dial is milled out of a solid block of aluminum. The lock case is made of steel. And the contact points are really soft. I expect a manipulation to be rather difficult.
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Oliv

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Post Thu May 24, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Difference S&G FAS 6880 and 6890?

MartinHewitt wrote:What is the difference between a S&G GAS 6880 and a 6890 which makes one a EN1300 class B and the other a class C? Both have 9 levers and use the same key. From I quick glance I did not recognize a difference. I will look tomorrow more closely. So perhaps I have then the answer.

1. Ad.: I put both next to each other. I really cannot see any significant difference. The direction of the levers was different, but the 6880 was certainly opened before and I am not sure of the direction (left/right) or the spring was the original order. Probably this does not make any real difference anyway. It might be that the levers have a better precision in the 6890, but I can't really see this. It might also be that it is just a marketing issue.


Martin,
Did you succeed to get the final word about the difference between 6880 and 6890 ?

S&G web site mentions the same number of levers for both models.
http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/inde ... w/308/199/


But ASSA says 9 levers for the 6990, 8 for the 6980 (note the different part number).
http://mpc.spear.production.assaabloy.c ... 45689&dl=1

Best regards
Oliv
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Post Thu May 24, 2018 11:15 am

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

Yup, found the difference. See: viewtopic.php?p=115422#p115422

The bolt stump assembly is movable and secured with a spring. When the lock is tensioned for picking it is pushed back. This pushes out a lever which is on the backside of the bolt and blocks its movement.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Oliv

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Post Thu May 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

Thanks for prompt answer, Martin.
I forgot we already mentionned the issue in other post.
Not sure at all I was right with Xray proof feature.:shock:

I have disassembled a 6990 and will post pictures asap.
Stay tuned.

Oliv
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu May 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

The 6990 should be X-ray proof, the 6890 is not.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oliv

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 7:22 am

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

Thank you Martin.
As promised, few pictures of 6990.

The levers design is more complexe and tolerance for picking far away more sensitive, complexified by the antipressure feature.


DSCN3104.JPG


DSCN3106.JPG


DSCN3110.JPG


DSCN3112.JPG


DSCN3111.JPG


DSCN3128.JPG


DSCN3129.JPG


DSCN3131.JPG


DSCN3132.JPG


DSCN3113.JPG


DSCN3120.JPG


DSCN3121.JPG


DSCN3138.JPG


I see no evidence of protection against Xray. Any idea ?
Oliv
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 9:17 am

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

Thanks!

Wow, interesting mechanism! Does this mean that the lever are held in their position by the black piece before the contact with the "bolt stumps" is made? Looks like a really great lock.

I don't seen anything specifically against x-ray. Perhaps the 9 layers of "bolt stump" is sufficient and all FAS locks are x-ray resistant?

Here is the statement "x-ray proof" for the 6890:
http://www.1010security.com/mm5/merchan ... ode=MXFAKL
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oliv

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 9:57 am

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

Confirmed here : https://www.safeandvaultlocks.com/sarge ... lever.html
And it seems 6990 replaced 6890 model.

The zamack lock case and bolt as brass levers are the same as 6880.

The only different material is the anti pressure feature (black part).
I guess it is made in Delrin so should no be view if using X-ray.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 10:04 am

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

The key information is located in the position of the brass "bolt stump" parts. Perhaps it is possible to see them with backscatter x-ray imaging, but it is not possible to get the depth information and hence position of a bit height on the key. It might be sufficient for "x-ray proof". Perhaps an x-ray image is so blurred that it is only possible to say "there is a key bit which is either of height 3, 4 or 5 on at least one position".
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Post Fri May 25, 2018 12:14 pm

Re: Why so many S&G combination lock models?

MartinHewitt wrote:This is probably not a technical, but a marketing question. I do not understand why they have so many models. And there are zillion other variants. The vault locks with a completely different layout. . ... This must make the production more expensive. So why not cut it down?


This phenomenon has long been observed with other lock makers, and indeed, many other products. Maybe it simply floods the market wherever the customer looks.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri May 25, 2018 4:27 pm

Re: Martin Hewitt's Questions

There was a phone box phone lock one one of the lock picking forums which used a similar mechanism to prevent picking. Unfortunately I can't find it, so I can't link it here.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt

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