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One more can't hurt, right?

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madsamurai

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Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:57 am

One more can't hurt, right?

Hey everyone, been a while since I've had time to come around and do more than lurk, but now that the christmas shopping frenzy is over I hope to get a bit of free time to get back to my usual shenanigans here. I've totally missed you guys, hope you all had a great holiday.

So I scored an S&G 6731 from Santa and I'm gonna try to get it mounted up this weekend and try my first four-wheel manipulation (three wheels is soooooo last year). Of course I'll be spending my next day off digging thru Oldfast's four-wheelin' posts, but in the mean time are there any tips/tricks I should know going in? Or is it pretty much the same procedure as a 3-wheel just with lotsa more spinning?

Also, any of you single guys have any suggestions for setting random combinations without the convenience of an extra person? I think I may build a little arduino-controlled dialer rig here in another month or two, but until then I'm kinda stuck, and this new one is factory-new so all 50s and will have to be set before I can start. Best I can think of is to change all of my combination locks at the same time with random combinations, and hope I just forget them by the time I come back to manipulate... thing is, I tend to remember (can't remember where I left my darned keys, but can't forget numbers when I want to), and then I feel like I'm cheating...
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mastersmith

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Post Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:31 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

give me a ring, we'll do lunch and I'll set them all to 1-2-3-4!
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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madsamurai

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Post Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:00 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

mastersmith wrote:give me a ring, we'll do lunch and I'll set them all to 1-2-3-4!

LOL... soon, I promise... I've only got 8 more days until my next day off, and then it's reduced hours thru January and February so I should have plenty of free time.
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capt-dunc

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Post Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:08 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

i generate some random numbers, rearrange the order if required to make a valid combo (ie not all rising/falling, not too close and no last number in the forbidden zone), and do a few locks at the same time. set them aside and forget.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

So nice to see ya around Chad!! I'm in the same boat - just comin back around.
All I can do through the summer is my best to maintain at least 'lurking status'.
Lookin' forward to spending another winter here with ya my friend :D

You might take a look at CPT1911 write-up HERE. He does some comparative
writing on S&G's 3 and 4-wheel locks, along with some spinnin' on it. Of course,
there's no pictures anymore... but you may find something helpful in his words.

Setting a combination 'blindly' is very due able. I've done it many times, both
with key-change and hand-change wheels. With the key-change locks, it's only
useful for so long - cuz you WILL eventually catch on to your own 'patterns'.
Big thick gloves, earplugs, and humming while doing it (lol) can help prolong
how long you can trick yourself... but again, you still catch on eventually.

I dunno just how good your mind keeps #'s, but once your collection grows
large enough, you probably won't have such a problem with it. I know for
me - after a manipulation, I put a new combo in before it goes back on
the shelf. By the time I come back around to it... I'm none the wiser.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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madsamurai

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Post Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:45 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

Hiya Oldfast! It's good to be back (and to actually have TIME to be back), and even better to see ya! Thanks for the link to CPT1911's post, that's super helpful... I can't wait to get this thing mounted up and give it a spin -- or lots of spins, I suppose. I hope my wrist is up for the challenge!

I've tried blind setting combos, but the click of the cam drop-in gives my position on the wheel away (haven't tried gloves, earplugs or humming yet, tho ;) ) so I still feel like I know at least roughly what numbers I'm setting, or I go too far and end up with two wheels at the same spot. I'm going to try just setting a bunch of locks at the same time, using that Safe House online combo generator so I have to think about the numbers as little as possible. I think that'll work out fine, however I'm going to need to make up some more mounting boards first... I have 9 combo locks now and only two mounts so it's a bit inconvenient at the moment.

Anyhow, it's great to see ya and glad to hear you've got some free time on the way. I'm finally reaching the slow months at my day job so I'll be back at it, too. I did manage to squeeze in a couple of small projects over the summer and will be posting about those soon. Tonight I'm determined to finally pick my first sidebar lock... been working on this Schlage Primus off and on for a while, and I'm soooo close. Wish me luck!
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madsamurai

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Post Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:47 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

so, after almost a year, I finally got the 6731 mounted, set a combo from the generator site and waited to be sure I forgot all the numbers, then finally tonight I got around to manipulating this thing. First time 4-wheelin' AND first time free spinning, opened in less than 2 hours! I'm actually buzzing a little from that... very straight forward, awr gave me w4, then al & 4 parked got me gates for 2 and 3, then brute forced w1 with 2,3,and 4 parked on their gates... got lucky and w1 was at 92 (started from 0). Very happy w1 wasn't at like 10 or something, cuz brute forcing w1 on a 4 wheel lock is serious tedious. R92-L58-R6-L60. Surprisingly a lot easier without graphs, at least on this lock.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:55 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

Good work. All this spinning for W1 can get a bit boring for me in four-wheel locks. Good that it was 92.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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L4R3L2

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Post Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:53 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

That's really good time for a 4-wheel, I would think! And, to think, you picked the 4-wheel lock for your first time free spinning. You really are MAD! Hahaha.

You're lucky that you didn't have a lot of masking. The more wheels, the more masking is likely to hide anything on all wheel rotations. This is the main reason I haven't tackled a 4-wheel lock yet. I've played with one I have mounted, but all wheel rotation gives me NOTHING. The thought of chasing low areas on that many wheels seems quite a bit more daunting than it already can be on 3-wheel locks.

You did great!
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madsamurai

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Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:00 pm

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

thanks, guys. I think this is probably the easiest of the 4-wheel locks available, which is why I picked it to be my first... no false gates or anything fancy. The one thing I did notice is that I really had a good grasp of wheel movement/position with this manipulation, in that I never really got confused about which wheel I was moving... I hope that's a sign I've progressed, or maybe I was just in the right headspace. There's a distinct difference in friction as each wheel picks up in this lock, so that might have contributed, too. L4R3L2, I certainly shared your apprehension going into this... I can only imagine how frustrating it could have been if I was wrong on one of the other wheels and tried to brute w1 or some such... could easily have added hours of dialing.
Anyway, time to change the combo and put it aside until I forget, then do it again... :)
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:34 am

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

Nice! And it's great to see you're still hard at it Chad.

madsamurai wrote:..... but in the mean time are there any tips/tricks I should know going in? Or is it pretty much the same procedure as a 3-wheel just with lotsa more spinning?.....

Can't say I've tackled an insane amount of 4-wheelers... so I don't know as though I have any huge tips necessarily.

I will say the binding order you encountered is certainly not uncommon. One might even dare say, expected. Without getting into a technical discussion... the mechanics and construction of the 6731 encourage a 4321 binding order. All that said, it must also be said... being mindful of possibilities and probabilities is advantageous - assumptions, on the other hand, can be dangerous. You might even gear your initial approach based on the thought of 4321 being likely - just be willing to jump ship quickly if the lock's telling you otherwise.

Also well known, but still worthy of mention, is the fact that plenty of 4-wheel locks in this world have been set to 3# combos. (given the frustration that a 3-wheel dialing sequence presents to many users, it's no surprise really). Now, the proper way to set 4 wheels to 3#'s is to set wheels 1&2 to the same #. But that doesn't mean someone along the way didn't double-up wheels 3&4 instead to achieve the same thing. Hell, I've even seen one where they removed the outer ring of w1 and left the inner hub on the wheel post. I suppose that works, lol... unfortunately when someone wants to utilize the entire lock years later - that outer ring has been lost to the sands of time, lol. Another thing I've seen is the fence cut short :???: A real tragedy.

Point is, we just never know. Ultimately, I think we're forced to treat and approach it for what it is; a 4-wheel lock. But other possibilities should be kept in the forefront of our minds as we go along. It may be set to 3, or even just 2 numbers. This seems simple enough, but failing to recognize this possibility throughout the manipulation can end in disaster. Or at the very least, add mountains of time to the session. Running multiple wheels together whenever possible can be one way to help catch this. Running wheels in iso is fine too(!) - but when a gate is found, be sure to run some tests to explore doubles before moving on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than that, it's just great to see you tackling something new and different. Personally, I've always noticed some benefit from doing this. Some expected, others unexpected. Sometimes I'd notice a more general improvement to my manipulation game overall. Other times I'd notice very specific aspects of my game were improved. It's all good.

Several people have mentioned how taxing a 4 wheel lock can be. No argument there. Undoubtedly though, we're building both mental and physical endurance (which can be enormous factors in this game). And navigating your way throughout the wheel pack should become more fluent requiring less thought. If you don't notice that yet, you will when reverting back to a 3-wheel lock. Also, probably just an overall confidence-booster. Not cocky, lol... but feeling capable and confident is usually a good thing. It's a positive attitude to have on the approach.

My only question now is.... when they gonna bring back some 5-wheelers for us? Help make the 4's easier. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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madsamurai

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Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:22 pm

Re: One more can't hurt, right?

So since I felt so good about free-spinning on this one, I decided to go back to one of my tougher 3-wheel locks, the LaGard 3330 and see how I could do free-spinning that one. Was a good deal tougher, as I knew it would be, since this lock only indicates when turning right... turning any combination of wheels around left hides everything thanks to the drift. AWL was a flat line as expected, AWR found a solid gate at 87 and a low area from 50-60. R87 measured best on w2 so I went with that, 1&2 @ R87 and w3 AR found w3's gate at R45. W3 doesn't really have any offset right to left, so L45 worked, then brute forced w1 and lucked out with a low number at L6. I haven't really been "timing" myself yet, but I believe it took about twice as long as the 6731 due to having to keep track of all the odd directional changes. L6-R87-L45, ~4 hrs give or take.

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