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Wheel 1 and wheel 3

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ironwill04

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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:10 am

Wheel 1 and wheel 3

I have been readingnfor a while and i thought i had this down, but every now and then i read something that confuses me amd suggests that i am wrong.

Wheel 1 is the first wheel the drive cam picks up, meaning it is the last number in the combination, and from cam to dial it is wheel 1, wheel 2, wheel 3? Or do i have this backward?

Wil
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Dean Thatcher

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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:46 pm

Location: Iowa

Post Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:06 am

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

i

a lot of my locks the wheels are numbered.
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MartinHewitt

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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:33 am

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

Wheel 1 is the wheel which is responsible for the first number. Edit: I.e. it is that which you have to dial the most in e.g. the 6730.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:21 pm

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

ironwill04 wrote:Wheel 1 is the first wheel the drive cam picks up, meaning it is the last number in the combination,
and from cam to dial it is wheel 1, wheel 2, wheel 3? Or do i have this backward?

Good question Wil. And yeah, you have it backwards. Adjacent to the drive cam is not w1, but w3.
Confusing at first because... although it is the first to be picked up... it is the LAST to be dialed.

Wheel 3 corresponds to the 3rd (and final) number of your 3-number combination. Lets say you have
a 4-wheel lock? Nearest the drive cam is w4. It's the last wheel to be dialed/positioned and corresponds
with the last number of your 4-number combination. So I guess, think in terms of the order in which the
wheels are positioned to play out the combination, rather than the order in which they get picked up.

Also, we always talk of wheels in reference to the drive cam rather than the dial. Reason being -
cams can be front-mounted or rear-mounted depending on the lock. Meaning the cam might be
closest to the dial (ie. dial, drivecam, wheelpack)... or... the cam might be furthest from the
dial (ie. the wheelpack now sets between the dial and drive cam). So you see, the dial -
drivecam relationship may change. But one thing that always remains constant is that...
the last wheel to be positioned for your combination will always be closest to the cam.



Similarly, you'll run into the same mix up in regards to left and right contact points. It will
depend upon what piece of literature you're reading and whether they're viewing the lock
from the front or the back, lol. Traditionally the lock should be viewed from the front, as
if you had x-ray vision looking through the dial and at the drive cam's gate. But not all
authors stick with the universal lingo.

Lets make it real simple. Say you're working with an S&G lock who's CP's are 6 and 14.

The LEFT contact point is 6 ..... and the RIGHT contact point is 14.

So, you will turn right (cw) to touch your LCP @ 6
And you will turn left (ccw) to touch your RCP @ 14
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

Oldfast wrote:
ironwill04 wrote:Wheel 1 is the first wheel the drive cam picks up, meaning it is the last number in the combination,
and from cam to dial it is wheel 1, wheel 2, wheel 3? Or do i have this backward?

Good question Wil. And yeah, you have it backwards. Adjacent to the drive cam is not w1, but w3.
Confusing at first because... although it is the first to be picked up... it is the LAST to be dialed.

Wheel 3 corresponds to the 3rd (and final) number of your 3-number combination. Lets say you have
a 4-wheel lock? Nearest the drive cam is w4. It's the last wheel to be dialed/positioned and corresponds
with the last number of your 4-number combination. So I guess, think in terms of the order in which the
wheels are positioned to play out the combination, rather than the order in which they get picked up.

Also, we always talk of wheels in reference to the drive cam rather than the dial. Reason being -
cams can be front-mounted or rear-mounted depending on the lock. Meaning the cam might be
closest to the dial (ie. dial, drivecam, wheelpack)... or... the cam might be furthest from the
dial (ie. the wheelpack now sets between the dial and drive cam). So you see, the dial -
drivecam relationship may change. But one thing that always remains constant is that...
the last wheel to be positioned for your combination will always be closest to the cam.



Similarly, you'll run into the same mix up in regards to left and right contact points. It will
depend upon what piece of literature you're reading and whether they're viewing the lock
from the front or the back, lol. Traditionally the lock should be viewed from the front, as
if you had x-ray vision looking through the dial and at the drive cam's gate. But not all
authors stick with the universal lingo.

Lets make it real simple. Say you're working with an S&G lock who's CP's are 6 and 14.

The LEFT contact point is 6 ..... and the RIGHT contact point is 14.

So, you will turn right (cw) to touch your LCP @ 6
And you will turn left (ccw) to touch your RCP @ 14


Thank you for the very diligent reply. It was much appreciated and I now have a much better understanding the wheels and their locations.

Wil
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:52 pm

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

In the general discussion of wheels; I did have another question regarding the flies.

Before digging to far into specific models and knowing learning about movable flies; it was my understanding that numbers on the dial would be about the same no matter how you approach them (eg from the left or right). I decided to run some tests and I did notice that if I park all the wheels at L0 and then went around to the right I would not pick up the first wheel again until I was pretty much in the same spot at R0. I re-ran this test with similar results at 50 as well. With movable flies this starts to make sense to me but I am not quite sure I grasp it fully.

While mapping all wheels L, I do not note any discernible gates (a little more difficult when rotation of the dial has an elliptical movement). However, when mapping all wheels R, there is a rather noticeable gate at 14. I then decided to amplify the area of 14 in both the right and left direction. The gate's center was found at right 14 but noting really noteworthy was found mapping the same area in left direction. High/Low testing revealed that the gate was on wheel 3, which confused me more because normally wheel 3 or the last number in the combination is dialed with a LEFT rotation.

I would appreciate any insight anyone has on this.

Wil
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Jaakko Fagerlund

Active Member

Posts: 354

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:55 pm

Location: Finland

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:12 pm

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

ironwill04 wrote:In the general discussion of wheels; I did have another question regarding the flies.

Before digging to far into specific models and knowing learning about movable flies; it was my understanding that numbers on the dial would be about the same no matter how you approach them (eg from the left or right). I decided to run some tests and I did notice that if I park all the wheels at L0 and then went around to the right I would not pick up the first wheel again until I was pretty much in the same spot at R0. I re-ran this test with similar results at 50 as well. With movable flies this starts to make sense to me but I am not quite sure I grasp it fully.

While mapping all wheels L, I do not note any discernible gates (a little more difficult when rotation of the dial has an elliptical movement). However, when mapping all wheels R, there is a rather noticeable gate at 14. I then decided to amplify the area of 14 in both the right and left direction. The gate's center was found at right 14 but noting really noteworthy was found mapping the same area in left direction. High/Low testing revealed that the gate was on wheel 3, which confused me more because normally wheel 3 or the last number in the combination is dialed with a LEFT rotation.

I would appreciate any insight anyone has on this.

Wil

Even though the theory is that it doesn't matter, in actual reality the numbers might have 0.1 to 0.5 number difference when changing directions. This coupled with the fact that the wheels tend to cock or lean on their shaft one way or the other depending on the rotation direction can make the difference between finding a gate and not finding anything but a flat line. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Do not get confused about which direction you find some wheels gate as opposed to the actual combination dialing direction. What matters is that you either then dial that wheel always the same (R14 for example) or convert the number, meaning you find what that little difference in the wheel number is when changing its dialing direction. Or just test it, go L13, test. L13.5 test, L14 test etc until you find the gate again.

Remember that there is no "wrong" way to dial the lock to get it open. Heck, one could dial all the numbers left, left, left and get it open. If that is what needs to be done, then that's the correct way for that situation.
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MartinHewitt

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 742

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:47 pm

Re: Wheel 1 and wheel 3

The real purpose of the fly is that you can use all numbers (besides the forbidden zone) in a combination. So with the fly you can set the lock to 10/9/11. Would it be fixed the width of the pin would determine how near you can come to the previous number. For this it is ok when the fly can move a bit more than exactly necessary to get an equal left/right behaviour. A bit less movement might be a problem. That dialing left and right is with the fly nearly the same is a side benefit. If you add/subtract 1.5/1.0/0.5 for w1/2/3 for a change of direction you will probably be not that far off.

If you change rotational direction of a wheel the low and high points of that wheel can shift. This is very noticeable on the La Gard locks. So if an AWR doesn't find anything it might be worth a try to do an AWL. And if high/low properties are important do not change the direction of dialing this location. E.g. if you found a low spot on W1 when dialing right at 40 and want to park W1 there, dial right even so w1 is normally dialed left.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt

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