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S&G

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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:31 pm

S&G

Hello,

I am currently working on my first combination lock and it is an S&G 3 wheel 6730 combination lock. I have read the manipulation for computer science many times as well as various online resourses and forums.

I am having trouble with getting the first number. I know the article for computer science talks about a combo lock manufacture defect where the spindle connecting the cam to the dial is not straight and i believe this is what i have. You can see the dial doesn't spin exactly straight. Also while trying to map the whole wheel pack together to get the first number i notice that my contact area stays exactly the same (down to 1/8 incrememts - having trouble reading anything smaller then 1/8 with accuracy). Then as i get half way around the dial the contact area gets tighter for a while, then back to where it was.
My graphs do not look like hills and valleys, more like straight linee with a deviation every now and then.

I do feel like the contact area gets narrower on each contact by 1/8th increment from 50-52, but it is flat and goes back to regular contact area after this. I don't know if this is whata gate signature would look like.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
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Cheesehead

Familiar Face

Posts: 39

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:31 pm

Re: S&G

ironwill04 wrote:Hello,

I am currently working on my first combination lock and it is an S&G 3 wheel 6730 combination lock. I have read the manipulation for computer science many times as well as various online resourses and forums.

I am having trouble with getting the first number. I know the article for computer science talks about a combo lock manufacture defect where the spindle connecting the cam to the dial is not straight and i believe this is what i have. You can see the dial doesn't spin exactly straight. Also while trying to map the whole wheel pack together to get the first number i notice that my contact area stays exactly the same (down to 1/8 incrememts - having trouble reading anything smaller then 1/8 with accuracy). Then as i get half way around the dial the contact area gets tighter for a while, then back to where it was.
My graphs do not look like hills and valleys, more like straight linee with a deviation every now and then.

I do feel like the contact area gets narrower on each contact by 1/8th increment from 50-52, but it is flat and goes back to regular contact area after this. I don't know if this is whata gate signature would look like.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.


Post a picture of the graphs?

Yes 50-52 sounds like a wheel signature. Why not check if there's a specific wheel that causes the contacts to get narrower 50-52? You don't say which way you're spinning wheels, but spin all the wheels the way you were testing, and throw off wheels one at a time 5 increments in the other direction. Hopefully you can tag the deviation to a particular wheel, and even if you don't have a gate 100% you're closer to finding gates on other wheels.

Just curious, is it actually easier to read in 8ths? My Canadian metric brain found it easier to think in tenths than 8ths.

-Tyler
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Re: S&G

I have also a metric brain, but with my older 6730 and dial it is rather easy to read 8ths. Mark directly over number is 0/8, mark directly between numbers is 4/8, middle of mark over right edge of number line is 2/8, a little bit left of this and a little bit right of this is 1/8 and 3/8. With a vernier scale it would not matter unless your sheet has only lines for 1/4 and 1/2.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Cheesehead

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Posts: 39

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:26 am

Re: S&G

MartinHewitt wrote:I have also a metric brain, but with my older 6730 and dial it is rather easy to read 8ths. Mark directly over number is 0/8, mark directly between numbers is 4/8, middle of mark over right edge of number line is 2/8, a little bit left of this and a little bit right of this is 1/8 and 3/8. With a vernier scale it would not matter unless your sheet has only lines for 1/4 and 1/2.


Yes I suppose it's physically easy...just never would have been my first approach.
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:46 pm

Re: S&G

The constant dividing in half makes it easier physically; but I do prefer metric. It makes thinking about things easier. Tell me how are you able to discern between 1/10th? Do you use any amplification? Just using the graduations on the dial is difficult for 10ths.

Once I get home and get my graph I will upload it. It seems as if my contact area is only two sizes, wide and slightly less wide. It does not seem like varies that much. I found that 50 was slightly narrow, so I amplified that area doing every increment between 45 and 55, and found 50, 51, and 52 all have the same narrowed contact. This seems like 51 would be a gate? I will try wheel testing and get back with that.
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:58 pm

Re: S&G

Cheesehead wrote:
You don't say which way you're spinning wheels, but spin all the wheels the way you were testing, and throw off wheels one at a time 5 increments in the other direction. Hopefully you can tag the deviation to a particular wheel, and even if you don't have a gate 100% you're closer to finding gates on other wheels.

Just curious, is it actually easier to read in 8ths? My Canadian metric brain found it easier to think in tenths than 8ths.

-Tyler


Your right. I always gravitate to spinning all the wheels left for some reason. After I started doing this I did read in a forum that it was best to map the wheel pack with all wheels left rotation because that is the direction that 2 out of 3 wheels are going to be spun in the combination. I don't know how much truth there is to this though.

will
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Cheesehead

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Posts: 39

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: S&G

ironwill04 wrote:The constant dividing in half makes it easier physically; but I do prefer metric. It makes thinking about things easier. Tell me how are you able to discern between 1/10th? Do you use any amplification? Just using the graduations on the dial is difficult for 10ths.


I don't personally use amplification, I'm used to reading scales this way. First divide into 2 sets of 5, then guesstimate. As long as you're consistent with your own readings (read same readings the same way) it doesn't matter much if it's actually 4 tenths instead of your 3.

If you want amplification you can get a 'Vernier" scale, which Martin referenced above. You can find pictures online, although I think someone made a template here for them so you can print your own.

ironwill04 wrote:It seems as if my contact area is only two sizes, wide and slightly less wide. It does not seem like varies that much. I found that 50 was slightly narrow, so I amplified that area doing every increment between 45 and 55, and found 50, 51, and 52 all have the same narrowed contact. This seems like 51 would be a gate? I will try wheel testing and get back with that.


That sounds like a classic gate signature to me. Something like ----__---- ? That's probably the clearest signature you'll ever get.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Posts: 354

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:55 pm

Location: Finland

Post Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:46 pm

Re: S&G

How about you turn the lock around and look if there is a gate under the fence at 50-52? If this isn't possible to do, then it's the end of discussion.
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4168

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: S&G

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:How about you turn the lock around and look if there is a gate under the fence at 50-52?
If this isn't possible to do, then it's the end of discussion.

With all due respect, this seems a little harsh and could be taken the wrong way.
Why not just come straight out and say or ask whatever it is that needs to be said?

Something like, "Will, is this lock yours? Is it currently in use? Is it mounted on a stand?"
Any of these I think would not only be more respectful, but more productive as well.(?)

I for one appreciate your cautiousness (I do!)... and I believe most anyone else new to
the forum can also appreciate it... as long as we approach them from the right angle.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: S&G

Oldfast wrote:
Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:How about you turn the lock around and look if there is a gate under the fence at 50-52?
If this isn't possible to do, then it's the end of discussion.

With all due respect, this seems a little harsh and could be taken the wrong way.
Why not just come straight out and say or ask whatever it is that needs to be said?

Something like, "Will, is this lock yours? Is it currently in use? Is it mounted on a stand?"
Any of these I think would not only be more respectful, but more productive as well.(?)

I for one appreciate your cautiousness (I do!)... and I believe most anyone else new to
the forum can also appreciate it... as long as we approach them from the right angle.


I have been hesitant about responding to this due to the abruptness. I do appreciate the cautiousness as well.

To answer the questions that oldfast posted, Yes the lock is mine. No it is not currently in use. It is mounted in a safe door which can be accessed from the back if you know how to disassemble the door. Also as I am learning this as a hobbyist, I do not like to look at the wheels until everything else has been exhausted. Once you look at the wheels you can not unlearn that information. For example, had I looked at the wheels to see if there was a gate at 51 like previously discussed I would have found there is no gate at 51 or anywhere around it just from a glance. After making a new graph and some careful thought I was able to correlate the issue with the eccentric rotation of the dial due to inability to perfectly mount the axis of the dial. You can actually see waves in the graph, especially measuring it out to 1/16th dial graduation.

Wil
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Jaakko Fagerlund

Active Member

Posts: 354

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:55 pm

Location: Finland

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:06 pm

Re: S&G

Oldfast wrote:
Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:How about you turn the lock around and look if there is a gate under the fence at 50-52?
If this isn't possible to do, then it's the end of discussion.

With all due respect, this seems a little harsh and could be taken the wrong way.
Why not just come straight out and say or ask whatever it is that needs to be said?

Something like, "Will, is this lock yours? Is it currently in use? Is it mounted on a stand?"
Any of these I think would not only be more respectful, but more productive as well.(?)

I for one appreciate your cautiousness (I do!)... and I believe most anyone else new to
the forum can also appreciate it... as long as we approach them from the right angle.

Okay, I really do have to say this to the OP: I'm sorry. The wording should have been quite different, I have no explanation to the previous message. Sorry about that.

But yeah, these things do require some caution like Oldfast pointed out.

ironwill04, looking at the wheels might make you unable to "unlearn", but it is far more easier to learn when you can just graph around the general area of a gate, say +-15 numbers. This way you know the gate is there and can actually focus on learning to make and read a proper graph. Otherwise you might end up spinning in circles for hours and hours without getting anything from the graphs.
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MartinHewitt

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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:25 pm

Re: S&G

Wil, you do need a combination change girl (CCG). When you have gotten it open you want do manipulate it again. And for this you need a new combination unknown to you. You can't do this yourself, therefore the CCG.

If you post here graphs you will get our or at least my opinion about it. Generally I have found that the wheels of the S&G locks are often highest next to the gate and lowest on the opposite side.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4168

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:30 pm

Re: S&G

Jaakko, that's great to hear.

Honestly, a day after posting, I half wondered if it was just ME that happened to
be in a mood when reading and took it the wrong way, lol. Anyhoot... all is well!

Wil, you learn however you want - that's the nice part about self-teaching. But
I do agree with what Jaakko is getting at. When first starting out, don't hesitate
to take a peek! It's not cheating... it's learning. In fact, I've told many people to
start out by working with a known combination. It's a nice way to get started.

All that said, I did the same thing as you though. Ha! The challenge/excitement
of trying to crack my first one blind was just too much to resist, lol. All-in-all...
just do whatever keeps it fun and fresh. Whatever helps you learn and enjoy.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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ironwill04

Newbie

Posts: 19

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 pm

Post Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: S&G

Hello everyone

So i have been trying to get pictures of my graphs but also post from my phone. Apparently i can only upload an attachment feom my camera and not my gallery so i have to take the pics as i post.

Anyway, i was able to manipulate the s&g 6730, which was a little dissappointing. It went a lot easier then any thread you read about on here. As i may have posted in the other thread about wheels 1 and 3, i had a clear indication of a gate at R14 and i was stunned not to say one on left around. Decided to work past this and try to locate another gate.

High low testing told me it was the last number in the combo

20171230_144111.jpg


So i set wheel 3 at R14 and mapped wheels 1 and 2 in left around. When i reached 20 i heard the loudest tink as i entered the contact. As i tried to turn the dial i could not feel the contacts. I decided to turn it to the right and the bolt retracted. Looming back at one of my graphs afterwardi can see what might be a gate. However i was not expecting to see two gates lined up on the same number.

20171230_142713.jpg


The interesting part is what Jaakko mentioned in the other thread about wheels 1 and 3; sometimes the comno that gets it done is not what you expect. In this case the simplicity is what made it complex. Not sure if you would call the combo L20-L20-R14, but to get it done was all wheels L, go R around and pick up wheel 3 at 20 and drop it at 14, then open.

20171230_142649.jpg


20171230_142742.jpg


Any insight?

Wil
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MartinHewitt

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Posts: 742

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: S&G

Sometimes people make mistakes setting a combination and overwrite a previous number.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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