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MartinsHewitt's 3330

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:37 pm

MartinsHewitt's 3330

I mounted my 3330 and started to play with it to get it known. I set the lock to 20/40/60 and (among other things) graph L20/R40/Lx and L20/R40/Rx. I made a clean graph of it for you,which I attached here. I used this also to test round graphs. (For one side only it is nice, for left+right I find it awkward.) Green is left around, red is right around. The behavior is very different in both directions. I included also a wheel with a view from the dial. I think it is how it should be viewed on this graph. The theory where the highest and lower areas are made my altashot are not valid here, I think. (Unless the wheel should indeed be viewed from the back.)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:23 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

Another graph. AWL (light green) and AWR (light red) with W3 Left (dark green) from the previous graph. No sign of a gate anywhere. With the W3 graph you can see clearly that the high area around 80-0 in AWL comes from W3.

I manipulated this lock with this combination by first making a quick search for a low point, which was at 15 1/8 and then optimized each wheel. At the low point I took actually W1 was the highest and so I found the gates in the order W1, W2 and finally W3. I did optimizations like from wirst W3 scan I excluded the higher areas from my second W3 scan. My estimation is that it would have taken me 1 1/2 to 2 hours.
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droshi

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Post Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

If I'm reading right, I think I approach this lock the same way. To reiterate, my quick method is to go AWL and look for a gate obviously, if you find one (major change that is confirmed to be the width of a gate only) then you're good, if you get gradual changes, then they are just noted to use for later.

If nothing was found, use the lowest point and move W3...usually pretty fast into the graph you can tell if you are getting good readings on W3 or not and will likely hit a gate, if you don't you can try your next low point on your AWL or you could decide to stay there and move W2 around. I prefer to work with W3 if I can as it's just so much faster to check.
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Cheesehead

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Post Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:42 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

MartinHewitt wrote:The theory where the highest and lower areas are made my altashot are not valid here, I think. (Unless the wheel should indeed be viewed from the back.)


For a quick check, why not set all the wheels to the same number and see if they all have the same high/low spots? Should only take 2-10 minutes tops.

-Tyler
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

This is now all left 60 with AWL and AWR. The different contact points are due to a new mounting with La Gard dial. Previous was a S&G dial. I don't think the graph is largely determined by wheel form. I believe it is most dependend on how the wheel hangs.
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jharveee

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Post Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:44 am

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

So... Checking to see if I understand, The Red line on the graph is AWR and is showing 7.80 at 65 to be your lowest indication.?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:48 am

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

7 7/8. Correct.
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jharveee

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Post Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

It has been a long time since I read "Altashot Theorem". Couldn't find the post, perhaps you could refresh my memory and include the link,? http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altashot/story/71817
As I remember, the biggest take away for me was that the gates would be located roughly 90 degrees to either side of the highest point on the wheel.
Vaguely remember seeing the photos showing how the wheels were warped. In fact when I last read it, I didn't understand the majority of it. Just now starting to figure it out. Looking at your last graph: the high area is 82.5 and the gate is located at 60, 22.5 increments away from the highest point. I so could be remembering these things wrong. I have between 10 to 20 openings on my practice LG3330, none on a real safe. I start out AWL and if I get nothing, then AWR, cause my reading change when going in different directions. If and when direction change fails to produce, I start parking wheels in different locations to expose the lower areas. Oldfast's Safe Chronicles has some diagrams of how the oval shaped wheels can be tipped over on their sides to create a better view of the wheel you're trying to map. My practice lock will indicate wheel 2 first, 98% of the time. Then wheel 3. Finally wheel 1. Sometimes my lock opens quickly and other times it a real battle.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

The photobucket link is what I was referring to. From this the high area on my w3 left is where a low area should be. And there is no high area at all on the AWR/60 at all.So I think this wheel model is not helpful with this lock.

I don't know what Oldfast wrote. Will have to look for this.

The opening strategy I tested for 20/40/60 was to dial 27 combinations to find a low spot. My theory was that a low area is at least a third wheel wide. I scanned all combinations of three positions on the three wheels optimized for quick dialing. Three combinations had contact points lower than AWL and AWR. From there I did optimize each wheel. The largest disk was there W1. Scan of W2 and W3 provided therefore not much information.
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Cheesehead

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Post Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:06 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

jharveee wrote:It has been a long time since I read "Altashot Theorem".I have between 10 to 20 openings on my practice LG3330, none on a real safe. I start out AWL and if I get nothing, then AWR, cause my reading change when going in different directions. If and when direction change fails to produce, I start parking wheels in different locations to expose the lower areas.


Interesting approach. I find it difficult to accurately evaluate readings that change because I'm going different directions, so I don't do that. Instead, I find the lowest point for AWL, and start parking wheels immediately. Next decide which wheel is the highest for that low point and try isolating that wheel to a lowest point. Rinse and repeat. The good thing is that finding low points doesn't have to be an exhaustive process all the time, going by increments of 5 is possible at early stages

My problem is, I can get lazy when it comes to wheels that require more turns. So if I need to isolate wheel 1 that really frustrates me. Unfortunately (or fortunately for my self discipline) finding an optimum position for wheel 2 so that I can spin wheel 1 is usually required. That's my least favourite manipulation.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

Open in 86 minutes. But first to the previous postings here.

Oldfast wrote in viewtopic.php?p=111812#p111812:
This is incorrect. And is a very common belief that I myself hung onto for a long time! LaGard wheels are in fact
fairly concentric. Actually, they're about as 'round' as any other wheel type in any other lock. Extreme fluctuations
exhibited by LaGards (and Ilco's P67 lock) are a direct result of what's known as 'wheel float'. Wheel float exists, to
some extent, in nearly every lock. But LaGard has it to such a degree that it tends to throw most of us for a real loop.

From the graphs I showed here, I think he is very correct.

My strategy for this opening was:
1) Test and write down the right contact point for all possible combinations of w1=0,35,70; w2=10,45,80; w3=20,55,90 and take the combination with the best contact point, or one of the best contact points. My reasoning was that if a wheel is off center I catch a low point with one of three equally distributed points. So even with wild floating wheels I do get a good location for further optimization with just 27 tests. The numbers on the three wheels are shifted by 10, so that they can be dialed without confusion. For actual testing the order can be optimized to reduce work. I start with 0/80/90 which is just 0, then 2.2 turns right and 1.1 turn left. Back to CP then forward to 90 and push w3 further to 20, then test and push to 55 and test. Return to w2@80 and push to 45, then w3@55, 90 and 20. And so on.
2) Optimize each wheel until gates are shown. This avoids identification of wheels and most of all any problem with wheel float when rotation directions are changed.

With this lock and combination I get in step 1 the best CP at 0/10/20 with 8 0/8. (Took me 20 minutes. I am not a quick dialer.) First scan was then L0/R10/Lx. This did show a gate at 40. I did there only halve of a scan, because it was so pronounced. Second scan was then L0/Rx/L40. This did show a strange behaviour at 40 - perhaps a gate - and a low area around 0 to 22 at 7 7/8. I took 20 as a safe and easy way for optimization. Next was Lx/20/40. This many jumps and fluctuation. I think part of the problem was the mounting of the dial. There were some points at 7 7/8 and a bit larger area around 2 to 7. I chose 5 also as a safe number. I did a rescan of w2 with L5/Rx/L40 starting at 45 for w2. The lock did open after 86 minutes at L5/R40/--. From examining the open lock the real combination was probably 6/40/41 or so. It might have been intentional as I made her a complete random number sheet or it was a failure setting the combination.

For this opening it was 1/2 scan of w3, 1 full scan of w2 and 1 full scan of w1 plus the 27 initial combination tests. As I wrote I am not a quick dialer. I should probably reread Oldfast's/altashot's description of how they dial and try to understand it.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:22 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

Here is the graph sheet of this opening. I did read just the right CPs. Halve red line in the middle is L0/R10/Lx. Blue line at the same location is L0/Rx/L40. Left red line is Lx/R20/L40. The little blue lines left is L5/Rx/L40. Lowest point in inital combination scan was 8 0/8 and highest 8 5/8 (at 35/80/90 and 70/80/90). The combination my CCG wanted to set was 6/11/40.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:01 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

After 84 minutes I'm kinda stuck. The behaviour around 5 is a bit strange. Also the lock is scrapeing between the contact points. Might be the spindle and the safe door or a loose spline key. In any case it should open. Maybe I should look into W2@R0. Or I should graph also the LCP.

PS: Maybe I should rescan W3.
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Cheesehead

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Post Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:15 am

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

MartinHewitt wrote:After 84 minutes I'm kinda stuck. The behaviour around 5 is a bit strange. Also the lock is scrapeing between the contact points. Might be the spindle and the safe door or a loose spline key. In any case it should open. Maybe I should look into W2@R0. Or I should graph also the LCP.

PS: Maybe I should rescan W3.


Does it scrape for all wheels through the contact points? My guess is one of your numbers is in the contact area.

Also, I wonder if it would be helpful to graph the LCP as well? I find it useful to make sure my contact area isn't shifting. More time and more paper, but much less second guessing. I do this when free-spinning as well. Although if you're less of a newb than myself you have a better way to deal with that?

-Tyler
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:09 pm

Re: MartinsHewitt's 3330

The only wheel making problems when set near the contact area should be W3, but with my last scans W3 was at 32 ... but not always ... When I set W2 to something near the contact area W3 is automagically also near the contact area when passing the contact area the next time ... I will have to think about that. Thanks. And I will redo W3 with LCP.
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