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Old Combination Lock

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Thanks Mike.

Maybe a bit information about the German combination lock situation on old safes ... In Germany the key lock was much more used than the combination lock. Every safe had a key lock or two. I don't know since when combination locks are available, but Kromer had their own design before WWI (if I remember the date of my catalog correctly, which I don't have at the moment), e.g. DRP 46083 (now called DE46083). I have never seen one, but I heard they were quite good. They were not sold well. It seems the sales of combination locks improved in the 1930s or latest the 1940s when Kromer and probably also Bode-Panzer introduced their copies of the S&G vault lock. 6550? 6805? Not sure about the number. It probably possible to replace an S&G lock with a Kromer one. The only problem is the threading of the spindle. Besides the GDR combination lock, where a way had to be found through a maze by turning, pushing and pulling to open it, all German locks I know of where of the type with wheels and spring-loaded fence lever. The vault locks were then used on high grade safes (and obviously vaults) as the first lock which also controlled the opening to the secondary key lock. If you see a big German safe with two dials then most certainly one dial is a real one and the other one is fake and just covers a key lock. So we have no friction fence, no gravity fence, no direct entry, no ... (don't know the names for all the different variants). Of the standard type locks I know only one German manipulation resistant lock. It was introduced by Kromer and prevents feeling of the CPs by a magnet controlled disk mounted on the back cover. It is still produced today, but due to its thickness it is not easy to install.
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Janp

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Hello, I’ve bought a similar lock last week. Is this also a kromer?
Would like to know what brand this is and maybe how old?

Cheers!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

I was irritated by the cover, but I am pretty sure it is a Kromer because of the inner construction, probably still a 15B. I am guessing it is from 1950s, perhaps 1960s and was used in a government container, because I know from government containers, that they have opening counters. Maybe this counter is the reason for this cover?

What numbers can you find in the lock or on the cover and bolt?
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Janp

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:12 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Thank you Martin,
I find on the side of the bolt 75 with underneed that a 2.
On the top of the bolt is: 61141
On the fence 41 and also 41 on the drive cam.
In the house I find also 61141 and on the inside of the lid I see 141.
Last edited by Janp on Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:20 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

61141 is the serial. The serial or part of the serial (last two or three digits) are stamped also on other parts. On my older 15B the serial is on the bolt head, the lever, cam, case and cover. I have seen a lock in the 50000s which still had DRGM on the cover, i.e. it should have been sold not much after 1945. So I would think yours is rather from the 1950s.

PS: Maybe an admin can append something like "(Kromer 15B)" to the main title of this thread so that it can be found more easily?
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Janp

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Thank you! Now I know the type of my “new” bought lock...
Thanks.
Is there some info on the net of kromer?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:46 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Janp wrote:Is there some info on the net of kromer?

I'm sure it is. :)
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Oldfast

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:26 am

Re: Old Combination Lock

The bit of info/history you typed up for us at the top of this page... interesting. So there in Germany years ago (and still today) safes were predominantly fitted with key locks. If you were to just take a wild guess... what would you say the ratio of key locks to combo locks is nowadays?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:30 am

Re: Old Combination Lock

I think the electronic locks might be dominating now. I'll ask the locksmith coming over on Saturday on his sales.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

MartinHewitt wrote:Of the standard type locks I know only one German manipulation resistant lock. It was introduced by Kromer and prevents feeling of the CPs by a magnet controlled disk mounted on the back cover. It is still produced today, but due to its thickness it is not easy to install.

Would love to see such a lock, NEVER heard of magnets used to do that in a safe lock. Even more intrigued that it is still produced - do you know of the model name/number or where to purchase one?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

MartinHewitt wrote:I think the electronic locks might be dominating now. I'll ask the locksmith coming over on Saturday on his sales.

He believes that most people buy safes with keys, because everything else costs extra. Something like "safe with key lock 400 Euro, combination lock instead of key lock +150 Euro, electronic lock instead of key lock +250 Euro". I assume in the US it is "safe with combination lock 400 dollars, electronic lock instead of combination lock +200 dollars". So locks in Germany are defined by price politics.

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:Of the standard type locks I know only one German manipulation resistant lock. It was introduced by Kromer and prevents feeling of the CPs by a magnet controlled disk mounted on the back cover. It is still produced today, but due to its thickness it is not easy to install.

Would love to see such a lock, NEVER heard of magnets used to do that in a safe lock. Even more intrigued that it is still produced - do you know of the model name/number or where to purchase one?

The rights and probably also production facilities for most locks have been bought by Lebtig (http://www.lebtig.de). They are still selling this lock. Lock model 3097 is magic module form factor and has 4 wheels, 3098 has 3 wheels. Both locks are 44.5mm thick. Probably to thick for most safes. Price for the 4-wheel lock is about 200 Euro. I won't buy there anything as I had no good experience with them. If you do order there don't ask questions! Not even for stuff which is public with S&G. Just order and grab what you can get. Because only crooks ask questions, not experts.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:07 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Thanks Martin for the good advice, I'll pop them an email (if that is okay with them)...
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

309x 1012 00 is standard model.
309x 1012 31 has additionally a bolt switch.
I do not understand the indirect drive options, so I can't say what's what.
3122 is the dial for the 3-wheel model 3098 and 3123 for the 4-wheel model 3097. I do not know why they distinguish. Maybe the dial for the 4-wheel lock has a smaller window due to Class C certification. At least the spindle is longer. (120mm for the 3123 must be an error.)
Both dials are available in two configurations: standard / punch and drill protection ("Bohrschutz").
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:31 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

First time free spinning. Fastest combination lock opening. 17 minutes. And no, I did not get that better.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: Old Combination Lock

Free spinning in 10 minutes.
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