FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

Beginning manipulation

<<

Cheesehead

Newbie

Posts: 9

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:59 pm

Re: Beginning manipulation

Thanks for all the feedback!

femurat wrote:Tyler, about the LaGard wheels, IIRC our fellow member Altashot explained very well, with a simple sketch, why they act like that and also how to use this characteristic to find the gates.


Thanks femurat, I'll look for that. I had looked at the Oldfast/LibertyClicks discussion over this lock, they seemed to have some ideas there as well.

droshi wrote: My current plan without graphing is as follows:
  1. Start AWL
  2. Test every 2 numbers
  3. As you test, obviously looking for a gate, but another area I write down the number to is a narrow contact area that I'm sure is too large to be a gate (spans several test points), this gives some good test points later


So far this is my method as well, I just seem to have trouble finding a next low point. Part of the problem is I usually am reluctant to reset the first wheel. But this is precisely the wheel I had to shift for my last manipulation

droshi wrote:My 3330 has bumps before and after each true gate, so a good graph of a wheel showing will show a substantial widening, then a very abrupt narrowing, so if the changes are gradual, even substantial I ignore them


This doesn't seem to be the case on mine, I don't think I've ever noticed any abrupt widening prior to a gate on any of my wheels. What I have noticed is that on wheel 3 the gate is not centred in the low point, so there is a very gradual widening.

droshi wrote:Tests at your narrowest areas help to isolate which wheel you are testing, as well as where to park wheels when testing others


Right this is where I'm struggling most (I think). What I think is happening is that 2 wheels combine to form a low spot, hiding each of their true low spots, and I'm not handling this well.

If it can be determined that only 2 wheels are a problem, perhaps to handle this in a maximum 4 tests: run the first wheel apprx. 10 marks on direction and then the other, keeping the number that doesn't raise your reading. Then rinse and repeat for the second wheel. This might not work well on 4 wheel locks, extra wheels to interfere.

droshi wrote:I've gotten several 15m timings doing this method to get 2 numbers in the combo. At this time I usually just peek at the last wheel as opposed to fully brute forcing the last number, but usually last number ends up being first wheel, which takes longest to brute force (w3 obviously being the fastest).


Excellent stuff! I'm certainly not there yet, perhaps sometime.

-Tyler
<<

Cheesehead

Newbie

Posts: 9

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Beginning manipulation

femurat wrote:... our fellow member Altashot explained very well, with a simple sketch...


Thanks femurat, exactly what I was looking for! I'll repost the link below.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Altas ... 1817/story
<<

droshi

Familiar Face

Posts: 53

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:37 pm

Post Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:15 pm

Re: Beginning manipulation

Cheesehead wrote:

droshi wrote:Tests at your narrowest areas help to isolate which wheel you are testing, as well as where to park wheels when testing others


Right this is where I'm struggling most (I think). What I think is happening is that 2 wheels combine to form a low spot, hiding each of their true low spots, and I'm not handling this well.

If it can be determined that only 2 wheels are a problem, perhaps to handle this in a maximum 4 tests: run the first wheel apprx. 10 marks on direction and then the other, keeping the number that doesn't raise your reading. Then rinse and repeat for the second wheel. This might not work well on 4 wheel locks, extra wheels to interfere.

-Tyler


Yeah because the wheels aren't round it is a little more challenging, but then again, most of the time so far one of the gates presents itself, if not getting to that overlapping low point and then working on 3rd wheel or 2&3 usually works.

Testing which wheel you are on isn't always a guaranteed recipe, so what I do is just do test until I'm satisfied with the result, finding multiple low spots is ideal as well. If no real conclusive data can be shown at your first spot then try parking other wheels at a different low spot.

I get the theory on traditional high/low testing, but for me it often results in inconclusive data, especially on the 3330. I instead try for wheel isolation, keeping in mind that w3 can always be put inside the contact area if needed on any lock to help rule it out.

Overall just knowing that the 3330 doesn't have perfectly round wheels is a big help as it helps rule out false positives.
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 369

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Beginning manipulation

I think the wheels also hang not perfectly and behave differently depending on left or right rotation.
<<

Cheesehead

Newbie

Posts: 9

Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:26 am

Post Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:46 pm

Re: Beginning manipulation

MartinHewitt wrote:I think the wheels also hang not perfectly and behave differently depending on left or right rotation.


I've noticed this on more than one lock. As far as I can tell (on my lock), it's not the wheels hanging imperfectly that causes this, but a sloppy spindle.

When I torque AWL on the LaGard, it causes the spindle to push away from the area where the fly contacts, causing different readings. This makes it really frustrating to compare readings from other directions because AWR is as much as .7 inc off of AWL. So I either run all your tests one way or get used to having two sets of contact points in mind. And it can change in an instant if I handle the dial differently than last reading.

Pictures of my lock mount. Mounted my second purchase yesterday, a diebold 177. Unfortunately, the diebold is missing two mounting screws, and the dial ring has more wear than I like; however, it makes for a pretty practice lock. I spun it AWL and AWR today, but can't see anything so far, will have to take a more precise approach.

Here's some pictures, pardon the clutter:

IMG_2531.JPG

IMG_2530.JPG

IMG_2524.JPG

IMG_2523.JPG

IMG_2534.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Previous

Return to Safes, Strongboxes & Combination Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware