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Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:09 pm
by femurat
That's why I said I must check the numbers again. I remember I put the false gate with the dot close to the fence and made a quick section AWL, but the numbers of the graph and the numbers I noted for the false gates don't line up. I must have made a mistake somewhere.
I'll check the numbers again and let you know.

Sorry for the confusion :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:54 pm
by madsamurai
So got mine today, and unfortunately for your theory, I neither have a false gate in the same position as yours, or any that have brass nubs protruding... I think this is something unique to yours. Mine also has different false gates on w3 from 1 & 2, which are the same. And my cam is painted metal, but it's a lightweight metal and kinda feels like plastic... rings if you drop it on a hard surface, tho, and shiny threads.

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:19 pm
by femurat
I had some time to play with the lock and decided to investigate the false gate with the dot again. The combo hasn't been changed yet. The first image with its two graphs represents the contact area around the false gate with the brass dot on wheel #3, the first two wheels are parked at their true gate. So wheels #1 and #2 at Left 51, wheel #3 around right between 0 and 95. I wrote down the numbers on a piece of paper and filled in the table from the bottom going up. I should reverse its order to reflect the test direction but I think it won't make a difference, once it's clear what I'm doing.

sg_6642_2_zpsvhjv7lmh.jpg


The contact area is quite flat in general, and there's a big jump on the false gate. I followed Martin suggestion and made a second test checking contact points every half number just in that area. Here is the result.

sg_6642_3_zpsjppvhptx.jpg


The right contact point doesn't show the brass dot. You can almost see the brass dot on the left contact point at 96,5 and 97.

I also checked the relative position of false gates on one wheel. Let's say the true gate is at 0, going left I find the false gates at 19,5 - 37 - 42 (the one with the brass dot) - 69,5 - 90.
I find funny that the false gate with the dot is at 42!

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:35 pm
by femurat
madsamurai wrote:So got mine today, and unfortunately for your theory, I neither have a false gate in the same position as yours, or any that have brass nubs protruding... I think this is something unique to yours. Mine also has different false gates on w3 from 1 & 2, which are the same. And my cam is painted metal, but it's a lightweight metal and kinda feels like plastic... rings if you drop it on a hard surface, tho, and shiny threads.


That's strange. Any chance to see some pictures of yours?

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:54 pm
by femurat
jharveee wrote:So in photo 3 the fence has dropped into Gate 89?

jharveee wrote:Dang, wrong one. 2 maybe.


I'm not sure I get what you mean. There's nothing at 89 and nothing at 2. Those are just the numbers where I decided to start graphing because they were flat areas around the false gate.
Does the new post of mine make more sense?

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:09 am
by madsamurai
femurat wrote:
madsamurai wrote:So got mine today, and unfortunately for your theory, I neither have a false gate in the same position as yours, or any that have brass nubs protruding... I think this is something unique to yours. Mine also has different false gates on w3 from 1 & 2, which are the same. And my cam is painted metal, but it's a lightweight metal and kinda feels like plastic... rings if you drop it on a hard surface, tho, and shiny threads.


That's strange. Any chance to see some pictures of yours?

Cheers :)

I'll take some pictures after work tomorrow, but basically what you're seeing protruding out of your false gate is part of the rekeying mechanism. It can only be in that specific position, so will only be visible like yours if there's a false gate where your false gate is. My false gates are at different locations than yours, so no bump. It also means trying to figure out the true gate position relative to false gates spacing/pattern isn't likely to work for these if they're all potentially different. Gonna have to work it out the hard way ;)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:28 am
by femurat
I understand the gates are cut at random locations. So we should analyse our locks and post here the false gates position to see if they're random or if there are just two or three options.

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:56 am
by MartinHewitt
femurat wrote:I understand the gates are cut at random locations. So we should analyse our locks and post here the false gates position to see if they're random or if there are just two or three options.

Three.

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:34 am
by femurat
Martin, you mean we already know the only three possible false gates positions. I've forgotten about your pdf and found it again just now. Never mind.
I made something similar and felt like a genius since I thought invented it LOL

Let's make a step back and see together what happened to my safe lock.
I managed to cut some plywood and glue it to make a simple stand for it. After a quick sanding and drilling I was ready to mount the lock.

20170626_183020_zpsuczypz1r.jpg


20170626_183056_zps6kknfebf.jpg


20170626_182857_zpske4tjfyq.jpg


20170626_183326_zpstdxwmkns.jpg


20170626_212501_zpslx0klrb4.jpg


20170628_064750_zpsywxlze2z.jpg


But I wanted to be sure the dial was centered so I built a tool to help me do it easily.

To be continued.

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:54 am
by femurat
I saw a tool in a how to video by S&G that helped to center the dial thanks to two threaded brass cones and a threaded rod. The idea is that by screwing the cones closer, they pull the dial towards the center. I tried to build something like that cheap. Cheap like 5 euro, without using any tool. I bought two 14 mm (9/16 inch) wall anchors for concrete and unscrewed the ends. Then got a small 8mm (5/16 inch) threaded rod. And presto I had my own centering tool!

20170625_171256_zpsvlcyxxdw.jpg


20170625_171540_zpscga0ahze.jpg


I mounted the lock on the back, put the dial ring on the front and inserted my alignment tool and gently tightened it. Now the dial ring was centered.

20170628_070516_zpssqwe0sik.jpg


20170628_065348_zpsqk7wxfam.jpg


I also checked from the top and from the sides that the thread was perpendicular to the surface.

20170628_065600_zpsuucxnknd.jpg


20170628_065622_zps7eymi5r8.jpg


So here is my lock on its new stand.

20170628_070701_zpscmqdzrcm.jpg


20170628_070712_zpselomgm5k.jpg


20170628_070725_zpsq3af3lzj.jpg


Before buying the anchors and the rod, make sure the thread matches.

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:09 pm
by femurat
Before you start reading this post, keep in mind that I made an extensive test just for the sake of it.
As I already said many times, in real life, after founding the first gate, true or false doesn't matter, it would be a lot quicker to stop the test and exploit it to better read the other wheels.
Looking for the first gate indication on the remaining two wheels or, even better if the gate is deep enough, for a complete test of one wheel.
I consider it a cheap approach but it works.

So after mounting my lock to its new stand I asked someone to change its combo.

20170702_112719.jpg


Here I feel like a scientist and I'm trying to get the most possible fun and info out of this manipulation. So the first graph is complete, and reveals much more than I expected.
It took me one hour to make this graph. I only made a dot when the reading was different than the previous one. I then traced a line to fill in the empty spaces.
Another thing I make different is the amplification part. I read in 2 increments and make the full graph filling in only the even number positions.
Then I amplify every increment around the interesting areas but, instead of making some small graphs under the first one, I add the small lines at the odd locations that are normally empty.
It's important to take all the readings again to take consistent readings. So for example when I amplified around the gates you can see some number has 2 readings, like 12, 32, 60, 78.

After the first graph I made a "ruler" to help me identify the true gate, based on its position relative to the false gates. Using it on the graph was useful but, in this case, the combo this lock was set played me a joke. Back on this later.

So after completing such a gateful (full of gates) graph
As you can see the gates I found were 10, 31, 40, 60.5, 80, 96.5. Supposing that all these gates are on the same wheel, the false gate at 31 may indicate the gate at 40 is true.
I made other similar considerations and I tried to dial all the possible combos with three of this possible gates and failed to open the lock.

20170704_055911.jpg


It was time to run some high low tests to find out which wheel was indicating the graphs.
I wrote tree numbers and the two contact points on their right.
To avoid missing the gate center, during the tests I always dial the direction I find the numbers. So all of these combos where dialed LEFT. Yes, I dialed left - left - left combos.
It's easier than find the gate centers again and much more precise than converting them.
I was a bit confused by all these gates, so I made many many tests. Some test with the usual -10 and +10 increments, some other test with another possible gate used as a reference. This confused but exhaustive approach took me almost one hour. I wrote which wheel was indicating where I thought I could conclude so, and a maybe where I felt it was not clear. I wrote nothing on the side of unclear tests.

A thing I noticed was that dialing 10 - 40 - 60 dropped the fence more than all the other tests. This lead me to believe that these combo had more than a true gate. Two true gates and a false one if I was lucky, one true gate and two deep false gates if I wasn't.

10 could be on wheel #2 or #3. 40 was on wheel #2. 60 could be on wheel #2 or #3.

In the last two conclusions only the number 10 was contradictory, so I decided to make a second graph checking wheel #1 around left, wheel #2 at right 40, wheel #3 at left 60.

I tried to find the center of the gate at 40 but couldn't feel differences dialing left or right. It was a pretty wide gate so I kept it at 40.

20170704_055926.jpg


This last graph took me just a few minutes because "unfortunately" the safe opened at 20! So my combo was 20 - 40 - 60.

One reason why the test gave me confusing results is because many false gates were on the same position on more than one wheel.

Now I need someone to change the combo again. This time I'll let the combo changer use a website to choose it, so I'm sure it's random.

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:24 pm
by MartinHewitt
It is a great mount and a great tool for centering the dial. I will look for such anchors.

I bought a safe as a key lock mount: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B003FMCTIG
This is the only safe I found with a standard mount (Magic Module for you US guys) with a weight of under 25kg. The door is filled with mineral wool which is nasty and needs to be cleaned out. Other than this it is perfect for key locks. Magnetic devices stick. If I want, I can lock up some chocolate as a reward. :) But for combination locks I would have to drill some holes.

The false gates can be quite confusing. My hope is the confusion can be trained away.

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:32 pm
by femurat
You bought a safe as a lock mount? That's brilliant! I've never thought to do that. Isn't it a bit overkill? :smile:
It feels like a real life situation, for sure.

Cheers :)

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:43 pm
by MartinHewitt
Has the rod for your center tool an M8 threading?

Re: My New Sargend and Greenleaf 6642

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:32 pm
by femurat
Yes it is M8. And I made another one M10 with bigger anchors for bigger holes.

Cheers :)