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Help needed with old S&G Lock

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dirkschmidt

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Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 3:33 pm

Post Wed May 24, 2017 4:18 pm

Help needed with old S&G Lock

Hi all,

i got an old german safe with an S&G Combination Lock. I got the combination and was able to open the door (luckily....).

Image

The lock is different to the locks i know since it has no change mark on the dial and a gap between 0 and 100:

Image
Image

I inserted the change key and turned it 90° Counterclockwise. The problem is that with the change key inserted i can´t rotate the dial wheel to set a new combination. Furthermore the original combination doesn´t work anymore since i removed the change key. It is possible to open the lock by aligning all that gates manually.
Any ideas how to change the combination of this old lock ? Its still i a good condition and i don´t want to replace it.

Many thanks in advance,

Cheers Dirk
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Wed May 24, 2017 4:37 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

It might be that just the change mark is missing on this dial and you have to know where it should be. If the cover is missing, feel for the hole in the other side of the lock where the change key tip should put into. To do this insert the change key and move it around.
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bitbuster

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Location: NW Wis

Post Wed May 24, 2017 6:07 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

With the dial set exactly between 100 and 0 on the opening index, mark on the dial ring where the 100 hash mark is. This 'should' be where the change index is. This has worked for me before but may not in this case. Ditto what MH said.
"I dream of a world where, chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned."......Ralph Waldo Emerson
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mastersmith

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Post Wed May 24, 2017 9:43 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

It sounds to me like you need to reset the "timing" on your wheels first. There is an index mark on both the wheel and the change key cam, make sure they are all lined up. Not being able to turn the dial after inserting the change key probably means they are not in synch. Once the wheels are in synch, find the correct location for the change key to be used. There is a hole on the bottom of the lock that the change key goes into when using it. Use a good light and find that hole, line your wheels up over it. With the cover in place the key should go in and turn. Do not remove the cover with the key turned, that is what caused this issue originally. Pick a number near 30, set the combo at all wheels left to that number. Remove the cover again so you can see the wheel location. Now dial the wheels left until they are under the gate, that will be the real number you set. Figure out the difference between what you dialed as your number originally and what is actually working. That is the amount to subtract from your "open index" to establish your "change index". I hope this makes sense, I kept editing until I put everything in there I wanted to relay to you. It sounds complicated but it isn't. While you are doing it all will be revealed! I hope! Good luck. Mark
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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lock-ed

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Location: Norway

Post Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

Hi, Dirk!
You have already received a lot of good tip!
Here is my suggestion of a walk-through, assuming you have the back cover and the changekey. And please, DO ALL OF THIS WITH THE DOOR OPEN! :shock:

Dial CCW(counterclockwise) until you have picked up all the wheels.
Stop when the #3 wheel/gate is under the fence.
Read your 3rd digit of the combination off the dial. Disregard the other wheels/digits for now.
Put the back-cover on.
Continue dialing CCW until you see the square change-socket(somebody please help with correct term.. :geek: )through the changekey-hole, AND HOLD THE DIAL STEADY WITH YOUR THUMB WHEN YOU SEE THE SQUARE.
Put a mark on the dial ring where your #3 digit is. THIS IS YOUR CHANGE MARK

Now, take the cover off again. Align all the gates under the fence(you can also read your "old" combination now, if you're curious...)
Put your changekey through the hole in the back-cover. Make sure to point it in the correct direction... Insert the key in the square hole. Make sure you get through all 3 wheels, and PULL THEM CW(you are now working from the rear..)until the tip of your key fits into its hole in the lockcase, and the back-cover fits onto the lockcase. Insert screws. This procedure is a little fiddly, and you might have to attempt it a couple of times.

You should now be in the position where :
All your wheels are aligned in the change-position
You are ready to turn the changekey CW to operate the clutch-mechanism that frees the wheels
and
enter your new combination using your very personal change-mark.

Remember to stop on your last digit, hold the dial with your thumb while you turn the changekey CCW, and extract it.

TEST YOUR NEW COMBINATION WITH THE DOOR OPEN, AT LEAST TWO TIMES :salute:

By now, everything should be working just fine.

By the way, I have only seen that dial on a Melsmetall safe, with a LaGard lock previously. It is possible, that it did not leave the factory with a S&G...

Brgds,
Ed
Last edited by lock-ed on Fri May 26, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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femurat

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Post Fri May 26, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

lock-ed wrote:Dial CCW(counterclockwise) until you have picked up all the wheels.
Stop when the #3 wheel/gate is under the fence.
Read your 3rd digit of the combination off the dial. Disregard the other wheels/digits for now.
Put the back-cover on.
Continue dialing CCW until you see the square change-socket(somebody please help with correct term.. :geek: )through the changekey-hole, AND HOLD THE DIAL STEADY WITH YOUR THUMB WHEN YOU SEE THE SQUARE.
Put a mark on the dial ring where your #3 digit is. THIS IS YOUR CHANGE MARK


This is very clever!

Cheers :)
Pictures in my posts are gone due to a policy change by my hosting provider that caught me unprepared. I'll work on that. In the meantime left click the image and open it in new tab, you should be able to see the picture, with a selection of unrelated advertising and banners all around it.
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dirkschmidt

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Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 3:33 pm

Post Wed May 31, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

Hi,

thanks a lot for all this useful information. I was able to align all wheels manualy and to insert the change key propberly with the cover mounted. After some experiments with lock-eds method (many thanks for that !) i found out that on this lock the change and the open position are the same. And it´s indeed a problem if you use the change key without the cover as i did on my first attempt. Now the lock works again with a new combination !

Cheers,

Dirk
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lock-ed

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Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:35 am

Location: Norway

Post Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:52 am

Re: Help needed with old S&G Lock

Dirkschmidt,
glad you succeeded! :smile:

I was intrigued to hear that the change-index was the same as opening. Could you please post a picture of the rear cover?

Cheers,
Ed

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