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1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:20 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

I am not pleased about the spike at 20, because it is not helpful at all. I don't think next to it can be a gate, because the levels next to it are far higher than our optimized w1/w2 level. I would have suggested rescanning of 55 - 62 too. Maybe even 52 - 62, because at the right contact point is a small vulcano. The lowest point stays at 91. It really might be the gate, but it does look strange to me. Unless your rescan around 60 provides important new information I would scan w1 with w2@R5 and w3@L91.
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jharveee

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Post Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:45 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Couldn't hurt to shake the dial a little when your between your contact points. If you're brute forcing wheel one. It might coax the lever into a gate. :hammering:
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iasithol

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Post Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:34 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Ok, I ran W1L; W2@R5; W3@L90.5.

Initially on W1 I picked every number that had ever appeared to be a potential, ran that and a few numbers on either side. Then I started filling in the gaps until I had ran the entire wheel by more or less every other number. I was looking for any narrowing of the contact area and my idea was that if I saw the narrowing I'd either run more numbers on W1 in that area until I got to the narrowest point or the safe would just open when I hit the correct W1.

I oscillated the dial with each contact area check.

I really got nothing. It seemed like my graph was appearing pretty much flat, without even a section where I could see a narrowing of the contact area.
I'll post the graph in a few to see if there is something I missed - tried to last night but I was literally falling asleep at my computer.

So....W2 seems to be R5. W3 gives me good results with L90.5. That combo with W1L - nothing.

Maybe I go back to W3 and look for something better there? :spinning:

Any ideas appreciated!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

When w1 scan is a flat line (or is two flat lines), then there is still a problem with w2 and/or w3. w3 is @L91 better than @L90, so I would have used rather 91 than 90.5, but that probably makes not a significant difference. You probably have still the scan of w3@50-60 to do. Unless this provides interesting data I don't see even a nearly comparable location to w3@L91. With w2 there is a bit more choice. w2@R3 is practically as good. w2@R59 is also not that horrible. Btw. what where the contact points you got for w1?

So I would do:
1) Scan the strange part of w3 as written. Maybe that yields another good location on w3.
2) Try w2@R3 and w2@R59 to see if a quick scan (maybe every 10 numbers) of w1 finds lower values than your last w1 scan. If nothing improves it is probably not worth the effort to scan every number.
3) Move w1 to some position other than R43 to scan w2. Maybe w1@L10 or L70 or whatever. Maybe your previous graph(s) still give you some indication where w1 is larger and smaller to help you deciding for a location different than 43. Maybe scan a few numbers at w1 with w2 in the range R10 to R0 to look for any improvements.
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iasithol

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Post Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Alright-that gives me a little hope. Actually a lot of hope. I don't know much about this, but when I feel like there is no possible way on Earth to magically open this sealed iron box I post something here and -whohooo!- there are three more logical steps I can take to get this open.


Thanks so much Martin, and everyone else. I really appreciate you all sharing your knowledge and taking the time to help me solve this problem.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:23 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

I have my knowledge from two books and opening three locks of diverse difficulty. I have learned some strategies there, but I am not a guru like Oldfast who opened thousands of locks. (Maybe not thousands, but I would not be astonished if they were over one hundred.) Unfortunately he seems to be not here much anymore.

Your locks is very difficult, but we get consistent readings and get the lever down. So I believe we should get it open at the end. Otherwise, you can try all possible combinations. :)

Another idea! At the beginning you did AWR and AWL scans and we got some difference here. So scanning in the other direction could show interesting information. The quickest test would be repeating the W1@R43, W2@R5 with a W3 Right scan.
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jharveee

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Post Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:21 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

What type of lock is this? Have you ever seen it opened before? Does it have a handle or lever on it? is it mounted in a fixed location? Wall safe? Floor safe?
Starting to wonder what type of lock it is? Really thought that last round would have given you an opening. Contact area in strange location, weird hump in your graph at 21. What is this sorcery?! What a battle!
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iasithol

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Post Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:50 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

jharveee,
I've got a picture on page 1 of this thread. S&G logo on what is at least a 20 year old wheel. That's when I installed it, no idea of it's actual age. It's a wall safe, no brand, handle or lever on the outside. It has been in use for the last 20 years. In the last year my wife was really sick and had trouble opening it, but I'm not sure if that was because of her mental clarity or if the thing was actually breaking. I have another thread I started re the same safe that talks about how I can't count its wheels because I can't feel the flies.


I have, without exaggeration, at least 30 hours spent graphing and spinning this wheel. Last night I started to work the new procedures Martin gave me and stopped. Didn't touch the safe all night. Felt great not to be on it. :)

At this point, the weird hump at 21 is the only consistency in the wheel. It's like an old friend that keeps reappearing when I travel to uncharted lands. :)
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jharveee

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:09 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

What is the diameter of the dial ring? Check Oldfast's safe chronicles Manipulation #3, maybe a similar lock with same issues?
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iasithol

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:28 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

80-5-93
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:49 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

So it is open? How did you find the combination?
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jharveee

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Congratulations!
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iasithol

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:16 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Image

It is open, but I’m sorry to report I didn’t manipulate it open.
This wall safe belonged to my wife. I was trying to get in because I thought the safe deposit box keys her daughter needed were there.
Her daughter had already requested that the deposit box be drilled open as she didn’t have keys. The bank had to wait 40 day before they’ll do that. So during this wait time I was trying to open the wall safe.
Yesterday, the bank drilled the safe deposit box and we retrieved the wall safe combo. I used that to open the wall safe. The keys were there.

So, this was a tough one, but I am confident that you guys were guiding me in the right direction and we would have got it eventually. Maybe if I hadn’t taken a break the night before they drilled…
If we look at the numbers I was guided to…
I didn’t have W1 and we knew that. So the 80 was still an unknown.
You guys put me right on W2 – 5. Perfect.
Wheel 3 @ 93 was pretty close to the 90.5 I was using. This morning I dialed in 80-5-91 (91 being the number Martin liked better than 90) and the safe opened with some oscillation. So 91 would have been close enough.
As frustrating and tiring as this was I had fun and learned a lot. My first chart posted here had W3 -90R so I was pretty close there.
My second chart had W2 at L6.5. So maybe if I’d converted that to R I would have came up with R5 instead of L6.5 and 90R would have been 93L? Not sure.

For the future, the mystery bump at 19-20 came up on almost every chart. In a few I’ll pop open the lock and see what’s causing that and why the contact area is not where anyone expects it to be. The dial also moves in 3 dimensions so I’ll try to tighten that up.

Also….my wife has another safe. I now have the combo but I have not looked at it….. :razz:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:44 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

At least your wife's safe hasn't been drilled. :)

I guess w2@L6.5 is roughly w2@R5.0-5.5 and w3@R90 is roughly w3@L90.5-91.0. So it is going at least in the correct direction.
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jharveee

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Post Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:29 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Now that you're all warmed up.........just think how fast your next manipulation will go!
How about a few photos with the back cover off?
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