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1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 9:24 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Yes, that is what I mean. Reproducibility is good.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 12:02 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

A suggestion: Park w1 and w2 right @ 27.5 and scan w3 left, i.e. turn 4 times right to 27.5 and then start scanning w3 from 30 on upwards. Or park w1&w2@R87.5 and scan w3 left. 27.5 is a minimum away from the suspected 90. 87.5 is an even better minimum and at least a bit of. I had also once the problem, that gates were very near and the higher edges of the gate covered the gate nearby.
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iasithol

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 6:58 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Okay, MartinHewitt. Per your suggestion,
    W1@2 R25. W3L by 2s.

The Contact Area was 6.8 to 7.1 with very gradual, non-dramatic change from L27 to L17.

And then:
    CAL97 to L17 = 7
    CA L19 = 7.8
    CA L20 = 7.8
    CA L21 = 7.4
    CA L22 = 6.9
and then back to CAs of all 6.8 to 7.1

7.8 is a big difference vs 7.1

What's on L19 & L20? And why did my CA get bigger? Wouldn't a gate have a smaller CA?
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 7:50 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Increased distance is not really helpful. The lever has to drop lower. If the distance is increasing it is indicating that he lever is held higher.

And a picture is IMHO more helpful than just numbers.
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:10 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Ok so once more, I am very new and have not earned my stripes yet. That being said, I do have some thoughts (possibly wrong) This area, to me is another possible gate. You need to keep in mind that often but not always there are high areas on one or both sides of a gate. It is common to see the contact area widen, then narrow, then widen again at a gate. I have already seen this effect happen sometimes on only one side of a gate. It will widen, go deep and then level off back where it was roughly prior to the gate. Now, what happens if the other wheels shadow the gate itself but still allow you to pick up on the widening before or after a gate? I may be wrong, but I would wager likely what you are seeing. You aren't necessarily looking for the narrowest contact area but rather "gate signatures." I would say what you have there is a very possible but not guaranteed gate. I would wager the center is likely L22 or L23 because it drops suddenly at L22 and gates are usually roughly 3 numbers wide so I am guessing L23 is likely the center. Now, having this info, it would be helpful to confirm it IS a gate before proceeding. Run the third wheel right while parking 1&2@R25 and see if there is more clarity in this area, or anywhere else really. If not you could try to park the other wheels somewhere else and check again. If you can't get confirmation, it is still IMHO your best bet so far. I would position wheel three at it's "gate" at L23 and run wheels one and two around. If you get a good gate now that will help to confirm the initial possible gate. Park 1&2 at the new gate and run 3 in isolation. You will now likely see the gate more clearly if it is indeed a gate. If so, find true gate center and then double check your other gate. Use high low testing approaching all test numbers from the same direction and tag it to a wheel. Proceed to bruteforce while graphing the final wheel and you will hopefully get an opening.
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:23 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Last night I cracked my 6730. I have free spun my last five openings and am having good luck. I am doing them much more quickly and learning a lot. I had what I thought was a possible gate on wheel two at R84 after my first spin. I positioned 1&2 here and ran 3 around left. I got nothing. I then ran it right and got a very clear gate at R55. I then used this to confirm my first gate of R84. This actually confirmed that R84 was not a gate, but it did give me much greater clarity of wheel three when the other two were positioned there. Next I ran 1 and 2 left with 3 at it's gate and hit a strong gate signature again at L34 on wheel 2. I used this new gate to confirm wheel 3's R55 beyond any doubt and then went to bruteforce wheel 1. The lock opened on R78-L34-R55 after a total time of 50 minutes. Was it a coincidence that R78 was fairly close to my possible gate at R84? Maybe, but it is interesting. This is just an example of what I mean about noting possibles and then later confirming them. If nothing else, they almost always help you to figure out more information. You need to work the fence deeper and deeper into the wheel pack, even if just on low spots until eventually the gates will show themselves.
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:32 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

One more thing, again, are you sure there isn't a broken fly or drive pin? It seems unlikely but I personally really doubt you wouldn't be able to tell when wheels pick up. I am curious if you "AWL" looks very similar to a 3AL graph. If so, that may help to confirm that theory. You aren't going to have a fun time if you aren't even moving all the wheels when you think you are.
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iasithol

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:50 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

tarboxb wrote:... I am curious if you "AWL" looks very similar to a 3AL graph...


Sorry, I'm not sure what this means. What's a 3AL graph? (that sounds the same as "AWL" to me).
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iasithol

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Ok, just ran:
W1&2 R25, W3 AR (16-24 only)

CA was:

16-7.1
17-7.1
18-8
19-7.8
20-7.1
21-7.1
22-7.1

From this and the results of the W1&2 R25, W3AL test I think my gate center is at 19.
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iasithol

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 8:58 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

iasithol wrote:
tarboxb wrote:... I am curious if you "AWL" looks very similar to a 3AL graph...


Sorry, I'm not sure what this means. What's a 3AL graph? (that sounds the same as "AWL" to me).


In the very next post I typed out 3AL and instantly realized what you meant. Duh...
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 9:06 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

You ran 3 right? As in R24, R23, R22, etc.? L19 is definitely not gate center. High points before drop offs are sometimes eluding to a gate at or just after the drop off. There is almost certainly not a gate at the high point.
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 9:10 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

At this point I would run 1&2 AR and park 3@L23 just for laughs. Like I said, you may get a gate which will let you come back and hopefully confirm L23 on wheel 3.
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tarboxb

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Post Wed May 10, 2017 9:14 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Also please post graphs. Seeing both contact points is useful. Graph simply the way the book says. Don't do any if this number stuff. Graph the points and connect them. Use regular graph paper if you want to graph tenths and find it difficult using the paprr divided into quarters. This will get you more help!
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tarboxb

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Post Thu May 11, 2017 1:38 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Hey iasithol, I wanted to share another experience I had today that further reinforced that if you are determined and willing to try multiple routes, you can often get an opening even on a tricky combination or lock. I was free spinning my 6730 today. I started AWR like I usually do and found nothing of any value, though I did note that the tightest contact area was around 0. Then I took AWL and again, nothing. At this point I decided that wheels were likely shadowing each other, so I decided to park 1&2 at R0 and run three AR. I decided on right as I got tighter contact readings in general AR so figured it would be logical to go that way. Again I got nothing. At this point I ran wheel three AL with 1&2 parked at R0 and again, nothing. I was feeling a bit discouraged at this point but wasn't going to give up that easily. Running wheel three in isolation showed me that my readings were often very far apart when not around 0. This showed me there was a good chance wheel three was shadowing the other two wheels when running them all together. Now I decided to park W3 at R0 and run 1&2 AL. I finally got a good gate signature at L53 though it was still a relatively small indication. I proceeded to high/low testing positioning all test numbers from the same direction and while the high test was inconclusive, the low test proved beyond all doubt my number was on the second wheel. I parked wheels one and two at L53 and ran three around right in isolation again, hoping for another gate. I finally got a good indication at R67. Seeing as how I was only running W3, I knew it was my third number. Before I bruteforced W1 though, I wanted to be sure of my second number. I positioned W3 at its now known gate at R67 and ran one and two through the L53 area again briefly. I confirmed not only the gate center was L53 but also that it was definitely on W2. At this point I was confident that bruteforcing W1 would almost certainly give me an opening. I ran W1 AR every two numbers and at R28-L53-R67... open! Total time: 45 minutes, 46 seconds.
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femurat

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Post Thu May 11, 2017 3:08 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

MartinHewitt wrote:Where are our experts? :)


You are the expert now!

iasithol wrote:Ok, just ran:
W1&2 R25, W3 AR (16-24 only)

CA was:

16-7.1
17-7.1
18-8
19-7.8
20-7.1
21-7.1
22-7.1

From this and the results of the W1&2 R25, W3AL test I think my gate center is at 19.


I don't think so, but it may be because I have misunderstood what you're saying.
From this post I get that your contact area is always smaller, 7.1, and at 18 and 19 it get's bigger, 8 and 7.8.
Your gate will be where the contact area is smaller, so everywhere except 18 and 19.
Or maybe you meant something else?

I suggest you read carefully some examples or tutorial, like mine lol, and try to follow them.
When you understand everything written there, you are ready to start over again with your own manipulation.
I'm not trying to slow you down, just putting you on the right track.

Good luck :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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