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1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

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iasithol

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Post Mon May 08, 2017 11:45 pm

1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Hey all,
Having problems opening an older S&G. Been working on it forever….my first attempted crack.

This is the same lock as in the “No flies” thread I posted a few days earlier. The issue of not being able to feel the flies in the lock seems to be irrelevant to my problem so I’ve left that thread to remove my future comments from the “no flies” issue in case someone else has a “flies” issue.
I’ve started this new thread just to detail my attempt to open this combo and ask for suggestions.

This first chart (1Z) details my first attempt to get indications. I didn’t see any that were very obvious but got a bite at 90. Dialing down on AWR 85-95 gave me R90 as my first number with HiLow testing putting this on W 3.

You’ll notice the date on this is 5/7/17 and that date is after my second chart. I actually ran this AWR chart ages ago but reran it this weekend to make sure I really had found the first number at R90. Both charts were fairly consistent as far as indications and R90 was the best I came up with on each.
Also, 17.5 indicated as a very high spot on each chart. Is that really what I’m seeing, just a high spot on the wheel?

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iasithol

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Post Mon May 08, 2017 11:49 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Chart 2B locks W3 on R90 and seems to find indications at 6L. HiLow testing puts 6L on W2.

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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 12:01 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Chart 3 locks W2-6.5, W3 R90 and runs W1 AR at every 2nd number. I started charting this run, then, thinking it was going to open eventually, stopped writing and just ran the numbers. Every number on this run seemed to read about the same with no significant changes in the contact area. I oscillated / jiggled in the contact area on every stop, hoping I'd drop the bar into the gates.

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Finally, I ran several test combinations with slight variations in the numbers I thought I’d found on W2&3. This was just because I had no clue where to go after failing to open when I thought I had 2 numbers of the combo. I thought I could at least see if + or – one or two numbers would make a difference. Changing R90 to R89 seems to widen the contact area enough to discard it as a potential number. R90 or R91 seem valid. Other than that, I got nothing.

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Any ideas where to go? I’m hoping there is something really obvious that I missed just because I’m a noob. Hoping to open this box and move on with my life….to a different lock.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:17 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

I don't see really any gate indications in your graphs. In your first graph you didn't graph around 90. Why do you think the gate is at 90? The contact points are really unusual for an S&G lock. What do the numbers in your graph mean?
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tarboxb

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:36 am

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Ok so again I am uber noob but I have a couple thoughts/suggestions. If you have a broken fly or drive pin the lock will not open. It's as simple as that. I am also confused about the 90 conclusion. Given your first graph I would tag "possible gates" keeping in mind it is unlikely all or any are. Next run the wheelpack the other way, you will likely find a good gate signature. If it is near one of your possibles then all the better! Next determine the indicating wheel, position that wheel at its gate and move on. I have been listening to Oldfast's recommendation to me to approach any "gate" as well as the high/low test numbers from the direction the gate was initially found and it seems to significantly increase the clarity and reliabilty of the test. I still goofed it up once but I'm new! If wheel 3 indicated park it and check 1&2, if 1 or 2, park both and run wheel three in isolation. I would go the same way that gave you the best graph clarity between the first two graphs as from my limited 9 openings I have concluded this increases the likelihood you will find another gate. When you are positive (95%) you have a second gate, use it to double check true gate center and which wheel the first gate was on then bruteforce the last wheel. Graph it! This is your first opening. Take your time and document. If you are off a touch you may notice the gate form but the lock won't open. Use your new number to double check the others. Good luck!
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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 6:31 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

Sorry, I guess I didn’t explain my graphs well.

I placed a Vernier Scale on my dial so I could see the increments more clearly.

So on my graph I just put a dot if the indication was exactly on a pre-printed line –for example at x.0 or x.5, but if the indication was x.8 I wrote an “8”.

Since this was the second time I did the AR graph, and I thought I’d find an indication at 90, instead of continuing every 2.5 numbers on the initial graph I went straight to expanding the indications for R85-95. Those details are on the next page in chart form.

So for number 85 I had a L contact point of 55.6, R contact point of 62.6.
62.6-55.7 = a Contact Area of 7 – the fourth column in the chart.

You can see the 90 Contact Area is not great, only 6.5 Contact Area vs 91 = 6.6 and 6.7 at numbers 88, 89, 92, 93. So that 1/10 of an indication is easily within the margin of error and may not be there at all. But I did get it on two different graphs taken a month apart.

The only thing I’m really sure of is that the contact points are in the 55-63 range. They are easily felt and heard.
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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 7:04 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

And here is the actual dial, so you know what we're working with. The scale at 0-9 is the Vernier Scale I taped on - really works well for me to break down the indications precisely - not that that's helping me open the safe.

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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 7:28 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

And here is probably my first graph ever. All wheels L. No hint of an indication that my amateur eyes saw so I ran All Wheels Right and got the faint R90.

See the weirdness at 20 - the super wide, sharp, distinct Contact Area? That same thing is at 17.5 on my AWR chart. I thought that was a gate until I realized the CA was expanding rather than contracting.

Is this just a high spot, like a burr, on the wheel?

Image
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tarboxb

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

While that maybe a burr, I would actually think that it could potentially be a gate as strange as that may seem as well another possible around 60. Often when the graph changes rapidly, even increasing it signifies a possible gate in that area. It is common for the wheels to be deformed near the gates and the graph will often open up before and after a gate. Sometimes there will be no dip between the rises that actually goes lower than what you have been seeing, sometimes it will just drop off and not rise, etc. I would guess there is a potential gate around 25. There is definitely no guarantee of this but this is what I mean about "possible gates." Using this graph I would probably park wheels one and two at 30 as it is a low area and then run wheel three in isolation, with any luck the first two wheels will be out of the way enough to get a gate signature on wheel three, then go from there. Remember, even running a single wheel you may get different indications one direction vs another. If you don't get a gate on wheel three around left, try right. You have to try different tactics until you find something useful. Do not assume anything for sure, but there is nothing wrong with assuming something "might" be a gate, as I have just done.
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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:11 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

tarboxb wrote:...I would probably park wheels one and two at 30 as it is a low area and then run wheel three in isolation...



Nice! Appreciate those instructions. I'll give them a try and see what I come up with.

Thanks!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

The indications you have are IMHO really uncertain. Here is one of my graphs from my 6730: viewtopic.php?p=109834#p109834
With your indication at 90 there is nothing at the left contact point and only 1/4 of a digit on the right contact point. But your scale looks really good! Could you try graphing the other way round?

Where are our experts?
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tarboxb

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:35 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

No problem iasithol. Like I said, I am very new to this and am only learning myself but there are a few things I have figured out. I have had several manipulations that at first seemed to be fruitless but after trying different methods ultimately came to an opening.
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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 8:43 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

MartinHewitt wrote:The indications you have are IMHO really uncertain.... there is nothing at the left contact point and only 1/4 of a digit on the right contact point. ...


Yeah!!!! That's what I've got! Maybe the "burr" is something....
And I posted both AWL and AWR with little on either.

I'm looking at tarboxb's procedure as my next hope for an indication.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 9:01 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

We had here a manipulation of a really cheap lock with wheels made from plastic. That had real burr directly opposite of the gate. On my 6730 the highest point is next to the gate, but still the gate is clearly indicating. Btw. can you reproduce a graph reasonably well? (Location of hills and valleys)

I am still puzzled because of the location of the contact points. All S&G locks I have seen can at least be mounted in right-hand and left-hand position without changing the drop zone.

And: Where are our experts? :)
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iasithol

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Post Tue May 09, 2017 9:09 pm

Re: 1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well

By reproduce, what do you mean?

If I redo a graph do I get the same indications? If that's what you mean, I think so. I did one graph 2x a month apart and the results were similar enough.
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