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1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no flies

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iasithol

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Post Thu May 04, 2017 7:29 pm

1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no flies

Hi all.

First post, and first attempted manipulation of an older S&G (don’t have the exact model number as I haven’t been able to match the dial to any pictures I could find).

It’s mounted in a wall safe I installed for my wife 20+ years ago. I did not retain the combo I gave her. She died a few months ago so I’ve been working on the lock in my spare time. Nothing inside is necessary but I’d like to get it open just to learn how to do it.

I think I’ve got the following combo through manipulation: x- L6.5-R90. I know I can brute force the last number and am getting ready to do so but don’t I have the rotation backwards? Doesn’t this lock need L-R-L and then R to open?

So assuming I discovered the numbers “backward” I wanted to convert the rotation. The problem is that the lock is so old and worn that I can’t feel the flies hitting. (there is also spindle play in 3 three dimension which I’m aware of. I’m maintaining the same pressure /feel with each spin and think I’ve accounted for the play when charting. The indications I get are fairy repeatable.)

The lock is so worn that when I was initially trying to count the wheels I could just barely feel the first fly hit and not any of the others. I eventually gave up and just said “probably 3 wheels” since I couldn’t really feel them to count.

So do I need to convert these numbers to get the box open? If so, how do I do that?

My current plan is to get the 3rd number by indicating and then reverse the numbers with a tolerance of 2-3 numbers on each side. So testing combos would be all variations of :
(1st#) Lx, Lx+1, Lx+2, Lx+3, Lx-1, Lx-2, Lx-3 - (2nd#) 4.5, R5.5, R6.5, R7.5, R8.5 – (3rd #) L89, L90, L91


What does anyone think about this?
(I’ve read most every post here, great info, learning a lot, just haven’t seen my problem addressed).
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Thu May 04, 2017 7:52 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

If you just want to have it open you can also dial backward, dial backward until the lever falls into the cam gate and then reverse to normal direction to open the safe.
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capt-dunc

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Post Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

you don't need to be able to feel 'the wheel pick up' to reverse dial or dial a combo all left etc. (since you know where you parked), so just stick with what you've got and brute force the last wheel in whatever direction feels best for dialing
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iasithol

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Post Thu May 04, 2017 8:18 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

Ok, this has been a slow process because I'm somewhat dyslexic (no kidding, there were many times when I'd say out loud "Left 92" look down and realize I was dialing Right.)

Would you guys mind telling me the specific procedure since I'm new to this (and dyslexic!)?
How do I dial backwards and reverse dial?
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tarboxb

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Post Thu May 04, 2017 9:59 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

You literally do everything exactly the same but dial Right, Left, Right. When you turn left into the drop in area at the end, the fence will enter the wheel pack abruptly and you will hear the lever nose strike the drive cam. Then run back to the right and the lock will open.
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tarboxb

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Post Thu May 04, 2017 10:00 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

I have to wonder though, is there any chance there is a broken fly or drive pin?
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iasithol

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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:13 pm

Post Thu May 04, 2017 10:07 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

tarboxb wrote:You literally do everything exactly the same but dial Right, Left, Right. When you turn left into the drop in area at the end, the fence will enter the wheel pack abruptly and you will hear the lever nose strike the drive cam. Then run back to the right and the lock will open.


Ok, do everything the same.
Dial Rx-L6.5-R90- and then L to enter the gates and R to open. I'll do that.

Broken fly? Don't know. Once I get it open I can disassemble and play with it.

Thanks!
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tarboxb

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Post Fri May 05, 2017 4:28 am

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

If it has a broken fly it won't open.
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iasithol

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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:13 pm

Post Fri May 05, 2017 8:17 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

Ok, just ran the following combo and the safe did not open. AR X-L6.5-R90

Brute forced the first number AR every two numbers. Did not graph as I did (since I was really expecting the door to pop open magically at some point) but I did look at the contact area carefully with each combo and did not notice any significant indications. It looked like the entire wheel was pretty smooth in the same general range.

The results of the high-lo test which I ran immediately prior to this and which (I thought) tied indication #6.5 to W2 were not real dramatic. I was assuming I had already correctly id’ed W3 as having R90 so I only checked W1&2.

There was no difference in the high test numbers and the results of the low test were 6.4 on the W1 test and 6.7 on the W2 test so I assumed indications at #6.5 were on W2.
Could this be wrong? Might indication #6.5 be on W1 instead? Should I brute force this number instead? L6.5-xx-R90

What would be the procedure / direction for dialing that in? That combination looks like a real dyslexia test!

Any other suggestions?

And re the possible broken fly - my wife was was using the safe before she died, but she also was exhibiting signs of dementia. So it's possible she had problems opening it (because of a broken fly), thought she was just confused and eventually forgot about it. That doesn't shed any light on this problem, but I can't really tell if the safe was completely operational due to her state-of-mind.
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Fri May 05, 2017 8:45 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

Can you show us your graphs and how you came to these numbers from them?
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tarboxb

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Post Fri May 05, 2017 9:47 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

Also, I would personally advise that you brute force every increment and always oscillate the dial in the drop in area to help coax the fence in if you are off a touch on a number. Again, I am very new at this and only have 5 successful manipulations under my belt, but I have found some locks are stubborn and if you aren't almost right on the number it won't open. Dialing every two numbers may fail even if the other two numbers are right. I know a lot of people do two numbers successfully, I just don't trust it yet.
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MartinHewitt

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Posts: 347

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Fri May 05, 2017 10:35 pm

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

If there is an off-by-a-little-bit problem, it could also be on the other two wheels. Zoom in to see if it is indeed the right number and not the right number + 1 or so. Graph your scan of the missing wheel. Sometimes the indication is not much, but helpful.
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iasithol

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Posts: 35

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:13 pm

Post Tue May 09, 2017 12:05 am

Re: 1st Real World Manipulation–Rotational Conversion w/no f

Gang, thanks for the advice and comments.

Comments seem to indicate that my not feeling the flies is not really preventing me from opening this safe. So I'm leaving this thread so that it doesn't get cluttered up with my non-fly comments.

I've started a new thread titled "1st Manipulation-Older S&G-Not going well" which follows my lack of manipulation skill and/or beginner's luck on this same lock. See that thread for my latest tribulations.

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